2021-09-29 00:00:00 - Joint Committee on Telecommunications, Utilities and Energy
2021-09-29 00:00:00 - Joint Committee on Telecommunications, Utilities and Energy
(Part 1 of 2)
SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
Mhm. Yeah. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm.
I will begin today's hearings. Uh first of all by welcoming everybody, health impacts. Ordinarily, I would also want to
uh introduce any25 members of the Senate who are here, but I believe they have yet to arrive. So I would like to recognize the House Chairman so that he can introduce House members and then I38 will have and opening remarks to Representative Roy. Great, thank you mr Chairman I as well, I'm looking forward to uh today's hearing and testimony and would like to introduce the House members who are present so far, we have Representative kate Lipper-Garabedian from Woburn, I'm sorry, from Melrose, uh didn't mean to move you Representative Lipper-Garabedian Representative steve Owens from Watertown and Representative Lenny mirra from West Newbury. Uh and as the other folks arrive, I'll uh introduce them in between testimony. So thank you for the opportunity and uh right back to you, Senator,
[SEN BARRETT:] Thank you very much Mr Chairman. Just a remark or two of my own to provide context as you all know today's hearing. With one or two exceptions involved bills that have to do with energy efficiency and reducing emissions from buildings, which as a practical matter means converting from oil and natural gas to electricity as the source of heating the Climate Act provides the general context in which all these bills need to be thought about as you all know the House and the Senate In the new Climate Act, which became effective on June 25 indicated that massachusetts has to curb emissions from buildings and that very soon. Well, within the next nine months, the secretary must set emissions limits a sub limit for residential building and heating, cooling and heating. Excuse me, uh A sub limit for commercial industrial heating and cooling.145 A sub limit for uh electric power which has to do with our attempts to electrify and yet a 4th sub limit for natural gas systems and infrastructure, which has much to do with building electrification as well. So four different sub limits will set the ground rules and will likely Be effective by June of 2022.
Before any of the bills were hearing today become lot or more or less concurrently with their becoming lost. So something to keep184 in mind that those emissions limits are going to have sub limits are going to have the force of law and provide context for everything we do as you all know, the Climate Act also calls for a specialist municipal opt in stretch energy code, specifically having to do with construction uh that is going to be a centerpiece of an effort again to ensure that we move away from fossil fuels in building heating. Uh the idea the hope is the Department of Energy Resources DOER will be listening to today's hearing, taking note of all the other efforts being made around reducing emissions from buildings and will promulgate A stretch energy code and now we're talking about the end of 2022. Uh sub limits are June of 2022. Dohr is promulgation must take place by the end of 2022.
But people on this listening here also know a straw proposal with respect to the stretch energy code might be dropping any day could happen anytime in the next two weeks. And depending on what that draft proposal for a stretch energy code uh calls for again the trajectory and the contents of the bills we hear today are likely to be affected. And finally, I'll mention mass save subject to yet additional provisions in the climate Act. As you know, all of mass saves, programs and initiatives going forward must take into account the social value of greenhouse gas emissions reductions as they seek to incentivize owner behaviour around the built environment and as we seek to help owners of buildings move towards reduced emissions. So we've got300 a three year mass save plan that is currently being contested uh and concerning which a great deal of controversy exists because the early draft didn't call for much in the way of emissions reductions.
We've got mass save. We've got the stretch energy code. We have four sub limits that must be set together with an overall limit all in the next nine months that will bear in some way on buildings. So328 there's a lot of context here. And with that, I want to begin today's hearings, I will mention that we look forward two hearing a special panel early on this morning Of experts from the Rocky Mountain Institute. They are interested Massachusetts policy but also in the ideas bubbling up in the other 49 states with respect to energy efficiency and building electrification. So that will provide additional context to the committee. The idea here is to give us lots of context to apply to the consideration of these discrete bills. Uh as as usual our practices to take legislators out of turn and I believe a number of legislators have come before us. I know Representative Robinson uh you were here early and again I want384 to congratulate you for uh your impending federal appointment that we're very proud of you and we feel that the country is lucky to394 have your services and we know you want to testify today on some bills that you have brought before this committee. So with that and if Senator Rausch is here, I'll I know you guys want to testify and tend them if you can and be happy to entertain you as a As a panel of413 two. If Senator Rausch is is with us.
[REP ROY:] Uh Good morning Senator Barrett, I am pleased to be here and Senator Barrett just before we get underway, I want to note that Representative Richard Haggerty of Woburn has joined us and he is part of the House committee. Thank433 you. Thank you mr Chair a welcome Representative Haggerty Uh So Representative Robinson Senator Rausch Senator would you like to kick it off.
[SEN RAUSCH:] [SB2432] [HB3266] Uh Sure thanks. Good morning. Chair Barrett. Chair Roy members of the committee. Thank you so much for taking us out of turn this morning and for the opportunity to testify in support of our bill, Senate 2432 House 3366 known as the Better Buildings Act. This climate action legislation is the result of an impressive collaboration among leaders and experts throughout the state, including environment massachusetts, mass pIRg health care without harm the boston. Climate Action Network series M A P C. A Better City and Moore Representative Robinson will speak to the specifics of the bill content shortly and you'll hear great detail and data from several climate experts later in the hearing, I'm here to emphasize the importance of this bill for achieving our climate roadmap obligations about which you just recently and just a few moments ago and so eloquently and poignantly500 spoke mr. Chair501 achieving those obligations protecting our planet and uplifting are people colleagues,
We know that the clock is ticking loudly on climate action. If we intend to meet the climate goals we set just months ago, then we must pass substantive legislation that pushes us closer to those goals. This bill is one such piece of legislation A whopping 67% of energy consumption and emissions in Massachusetts is linked in some way to existing buildings and their operations. 27% of our greenhouse gas emissions statewide stem from that building energy use and because we're such a, let's say historic state, most of our buildings already exist, Some 85% of the buildings that will exist in Boston in the year 2050, the climate roadmap target year have already been built. If we're serious about combating climate change, then we've got to get serious about curbing carbon emissions from existing buildings, especially the big ones to date. We are failing to do that.
Saving the planet is reason enough to advance the better buildings act, but it isn't the only benefit considered personal and public health oil and gas heating systems in our buildings also release harmful pollutants linked to asthma, heart attacks, stroke and other health problems for our constituents. There's also the issue of cost inefficient buildings yield higher energy bills. We've all been in the594 State House or other old drafty building in the winter when some rooms are freezing cold and others are so hot that you have to open the windows. What a waste on top of the contributions to the destruction of our environment. Chair Roy you and I have the distinct privilege of representing the fine town of Franklin estimates from our experts indicate that this bill could help reduce the routine energy costs for over 100 of franklin's business owners. Plus the better buildings act would help create new jobs in a moment when so many of our constituents remain out of work,627 Not just any jobs, mind you, but jobs in a growing sector. The green economy jobs with a future will also create statewide consistency.
So building owners with portfolio spanning multiple municipalities won't have to figure out different energy use standards in different towns and cities will also benefit smaller towns that might not have the resources to take this kind of climate action on their own. As Representative Robinson will discuss in more detail the better buildings act, curbs carbon emissions from existing large buildings through data reporting and setting specific658 energy use standards. It's overdue cost neutral climate action legislation and if D. O. Er needs to needs a new database to get this done, Arpa funds could be used to build it. Think about how long buildings stick around now. Think about the kind of legacy676 we can leave for generations to come bypassing the better buildings act and doing everything in our power to ensure those buildings are not contributing to climate change by inefficient over use of fossil fuels but rather charting a course to a greener,692 healthier future through clean electric energy with heat pumps and other technology. We ask you to swiftly issue a favorable report on the better buildings act just as this honourable committee did last session. Thank you for your attention and your consideration now, it's my distinct honor to turn it over710 to Representative Robinson who will talk about the achievable climate solutions provided in the better buildings act.
[REP ROBINSON:] Thank you so much. Thanks senator and um very happy to be here in in front of this committee and amongst friends and just to be clear I will be yours to kick around for for several more months. Um So so you're not ready to me quite yet for me on all things energy efficiency and frankly I'm just very excited about many of the bills that are that are being presented today and that there is such a focus on energy efficiency and that you have the great people from our my who are old friends coming coming in to talk um for this particular bill um just as as a reminder for for those of you who may not have been with us last session when we discussed it in detail and couple of changes as well. So first it sets a reporting requirement for energy usage in large buildings which we764 define as over 25,000 square feet and eventually work our way down to about 15,000 square feet. Um And this is key because we have very little reporting of energy usage in large buildings776 um and it's going to be key for setting benchmarks as um Senator Barrett referenced earlier under our long term road784 map. And so that reporting piece is huge and as uh Senator Rausch mentioned, we might be able to791 invest in some good software that can help assist D. O. Er with that because I know DOER is concerned about FTS and uh person power in order to maintain such a massive database.
So hopefully805 there's some software option available for that um Using this particular data then deal we are would move forward to set building energy performance standards based on the building use. And I want to be clear that we set these different um seven available. Which I think is important because buildings that are say growing um marijuana and industrial facilities have a very different usage than office buildings in downtown boston. So we835 want to make sure that we're comparing at least apples to slightly different types of apples um as opposed to Apple's and giraffes. So it's really really key for us then to set performance standards that would reduce down by 20% over the course of five years. Um We recognize of course that there are going to be building owners that need some sort of financial assistance to meet these standards. Um And and the bill specifies that deal. Er863 DPU and the utilities work together to to find financial assistance options. Um And in particular thinking about low income multi family residences because we want to ensure that877 those large apartment buildings our are able to meet these energy efficiency standards for all of the public health and um larger personal health and air quality issues. I'm sure you'll hear about a lot today.
Um And finally and this is important for the purposes of897 discussion with boston having recently passed its Burdeau ordinance. Um, so, congratulations to Councilor O Malley for making that happen. Um, it's been a long time in the works and this bill will allow for municipalities to have their own versions that um, would, would include the reporting and emission standards that exceed those statewide requirements. So, um, while this is, I've been a pretty standard policy in a number of different municipalities, massachusetts would be the first state to adopt a full930 statewide building performance standard um which is a great opportunity for us to maintain our number one ranking in energy efficiency that I know that we're extremely proud of and get annoyed at the idea of, of California eating ahead. Um, but it would also mean that the state could have some internal consistency and provide regulatory, certain certainty for building owners. Now that boston has these standards, we know that um, building owners in boston also owned buildings across the rest of the commonwealth and so creating some regulatory certainty I think would be really important um for for those building owners.
Um, so obviously there are a number of different economic environmental benefits that many others today will be talking about as well, but really key, I think that Senator Barrett head on is that if we're going to meet our goals for 2050 as well as all the intermediate targets, we really need to be focusing on large buildings and in particular on existing buildings. Um, and and really replacing some of our heating systems with new clean alternatives that are significantly more efficient and more cost effective, so really appreciate all of your time here today. I also have another bill with Senator Pacheco who I don't see here today. I feel confident that Senator Pacheco will eventually come in and want to talk at length about the bill that we're working on together which is building jobs with justice. So I will I'll wait for him I suppose um to have that discussion but um for either these1027 bills, more than happy to talk with the chairs off one about any questions that you might have as well. Thank you.
SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
Thank you Representative and thank you senator. Are there questions of our panel?
I'm sure there will be questions when related witnesses testify later and want to thank you very much for leading us off this morning both of thank you mr Chair great to see you Senator Creem do you wish to testify?
I do I miss the committee and I'm sorry I'm not on it but you we miss you but it's nice to be back.
[SEN CREEM:] So thank you a chair Barrett and Roy for taking me out of order. Uh and I know that today's hearings are about energy efficiency and I'm going to tell you about energy efficiency. I'm here to testify on my and Representative Garballey is Bill an act to improve outdoor lighting, conserve energy and increased dark skies, visibility. I know Mr chair I talk to you about this before but this is a very important bill1093 and I hope finally with your support it's time that we passed this in this session. I also want to thank Representative Garballey for his leadership in the House and to the International Dark Sky Association and all the organizations that are supporting this legislation. I'm aware that the International Dark Sky Association has1116 shared some minor tweaks to the language of this bill with the committee. I wanted to make sure you know that Representative Garballey and I are1125 supportive of those changes and believe they improve the bill When I was growing up. You could look at the night sky and sea stars and constellations in all directions. You might remember something called the big dipper, the little dipper, things that we don't see so well now these days1142 you might see stars here and there, but because of light pollution disguise are much darker.
What a shame Not only because it deprives us of our inspiring beauty, but also because light pollution is harming human health, interfering with wildlife, wasting energy and generating greenhouse gas emissions.1164 We can address these problems by installing different lighting1168 and shielding along roadways and the transition doesn't have to be disruptive or expensive for cities and towns. The bill1178 does not require municipalities or the state to dear tear down working like polls and incur substantial new costs. All it requires is that when a municipality or the state is installing new lighting or replacing existing lighting it do so only when necessary and then it used fully shielded lighting and it use a warm shade of light that is better for human health and for the environment is a very simple things that could make such a difference. Cities and towns can actually save money when they replace existing lighting with the kind of lighting required under this bill. The legislation also directs the Department of public utilities to approve new tariffs that will make it even more affordable for cities and towns to install low water are dimmable streetlights. The bill takes1230 a common sense approach that will reduce light pollution, improve human health, protect the environment, reduce energy usage and emission and do all that without creating a significant new costs for municipalities the state. I hope the committee can support this bill now is the time to see the light. I'm happy to answer any questions that the committee might have. Thank you again.
SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
Thank you so much. Senator. Are there questions of senator Creem at this time
hearing none we'll move on but thanks very much for illuminating the discovery. Good one. We want to hear from Representative Higgins I believe that she's with us and wishes to testify the floor is Representative.
[REP HIGGINS:] [SB2152] [HB3320] Thank you. Chair Barrett. Chair Roy members of the1284 committee. I'm really thankful to be here to talk about the green act. Gateway cities, renewable efficient and electrified neighborhoods that I'm working on with my Kushmerek we have House bill H 3320 and Senator Crighton s 2152. And I just want to give um kind of a brief background of how we began to work on this bill and and I'm zooming in from my house in lemon stir massachusetts. That also was my great grandparents house uh, and was built in 1920 And I'm really proud to own this house. But with it comes a lot of major challenges of owning a 100 year old house. Um, and so many families in gateway cities and smaller economically challenged communities are dealing with older housing stock and challenges of how to make sure that they can retrofit their homes to be net zero.
So I'm really thankful um, to team up with environment massachusetts at the mass climate action network to come to them and say, you know, I'm an admirer of environmental policy. I am not an expert in environmental policy, but how do we make sure that green energy solutions are accessible to low income families in gateway cities like mine? Uh, it shouldn't be something that just multi residents can, can opt into. Um, and how do we make an incentive for community to show off innovative projects across the commonwealth. So there's two parts to the Green Act. Uh the advocates will go into much more detail and I know we'll be able to answer all of your questions but we really wanted to look at a way to, to to lift up opportunities and help families and communities like mine remove their energy bills which can be game changing and keep them in their homes a whole lot longer. So thank you for the time. Representative Higgins thank you are there questions of the representative
again? Thanks very much for testifying. We want to hear from Representative Ciccolo I think it's been waiting very patiently is represents Ciccolo with us.
I had, I thought I had seen the representative if she's temporarily absent. Um we will hear from Representative Garballey I think is with us.
[REP GARBALLEY:] Thank you. Chair barrett chair Roy members of the committee, I apologize I'm off camera, it turns out the statehouse wifi is too much for my camera so I apologize, I have to do this off camera. Majority Leader Creem I think really touched on why this bill is so important and act to improve outdoor lighting, conserve energy and increased dark sky visibility. So I don't want to repeat the same testimony that she gave but this is a very important bill,1446 you will be hearing from a panel of experts1448 on why this is so important but a couple of things that she did not mention ah that I think is really, really important is the fact that we are the only state in the Northeast that has not passed Uh legislation like this one And the sky, the brightness of the sky nationally is rising about 2.2% per year. So this really has become a problem. And you know, when you go outside in Lexington or Arlington chairman Bair because we live next door to each1485 other, you know, it was not too long ago, you could look up at the1489 sky and sea stars.
Now you look up at the sky and you might be able to see three or four depending on the clarity of the night. Uh, that is a significant problem because it comes with health concerns, that comes with environmental concerns. It1504 comes with a whole host of problems that, that, that we have to address and that. Uh, and that we can address and this is not just about replacing light and you know, this is not, you know, we're not trying to scare people that this is a dark sky and we're going to get rid of all lighting. That's not the, if you look at some of your exterior lights in your communities, you would see that much of your lighting shines up as well lives down. So there's about 50% of light fixtures that are, are in official. And so the goal is to replace those when the time comes in, the municipality of the state is fixing broken lights or replacing lights are putting up new lights that you would have full exterior shade lighting. So the light doesn't shine up. Uh, you know, this is a common sense approach. So we look myself and Majority leader Creem Look forward to working with the chairs and the committee members on crafting legislation to join the rest of the Northeast but also finally address this issue because this is something that we can do as public policymakers. So thanks so much and I look forward to working with the committee on this important bill.
SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
Uh thank you very much. Representative Garballey Are there questions of the representative uh hearing? None will will continue on. Thanks again sean for joining us. Thank you. I'm now pleased to uh here from on behalf of the committee from a panel from the Rocky Mountain Institute. Uh the hope here is that RMIs national perspective on state initiatives throughout the country can provide some additional framing for the very specific proposals that we need to think through in massachusetts.
I want to ask our my if there on this call and prepared to testify. Um yep here and ready. Terrific. Well, good to to have you. I think that was Jacob Jacob why don't you core body, why don't you introduce yourself? Your fellow panelists and the committee on Telecommunications, utilities and Energy is grateful to have you with us and looking forward to your comments.
[JACOB CORVIDAE (ROCKY MOUNTAIN INSTITUTE):] Uh Yeah, happy to. I'm Jacob Corvidae, I'm a principal at RMI and our U. S. Program I have with me, my colleague Heather clark and Marcia where managers and are covering feed buildings program. So we're happy to join you here today and thank you so much for the opportunity to provide context to this discussion. Senator Barrett. Um I also want to thank you Chair Roy and other esteemed legislators here. The work you're embarking on1679 is critical and it's an honor to join me today. So polar vortex, thunder snow bomb, cyclone heat dome, fire, tornado wildfires1693 like we have never seen before in the west, but1697 also now in Minnesota, these things are becoming commonplace and the costs are rising quickly and dramatically addressing climate change is actually less expensive than facing the rising costs of extreme weather resilience is important but it is not the answer by itself. There is no end to the rising adaptation budget if we do not tackle mitigation.
So the key question is whether massachusetts is climate aligned, but also whether it is clean energy aligned because that will both address the climate crisis and it will also position the state To navigate the 21st century economy with all the jobs, health and economic benefits come along with it. Uh as you'll hear the next generation acts that legally binding goals and it set the right goals 50% emissions reduction by 2030. That is a really powerful step1751 and congratulations for making that happen. And now you need the actual company portfolio policies to enact that road map. Right? So we're here to provide some context for the discussion of the policies before you and I'm going to start with a broader perspective on climate action across the US and my colleagues will bring this into the massachusetts perspective a bit more. So to be clear, federal support may be coming soon, which is great, but it will not be sufficient to the task at hand. States themselves have to continue leading here. States are essential to the U. S. Effort and therefore to the world's effort in this front. But here's the thing I want to be clear on which is that no state is yet climate lined.
We have front runners that are out there doing great leadership but they are1800 not currently on pace to win the race. So what does it mean to be climate aligned? There's three basic steps. When we look at the big picture. The first is we need to produce clean electricity such as wind production etcetera and not from fossil fuels and that makes possible step to which is that1818 we switched to using that clean electricity to power our lives, buildings, transportation and industry all need to become efficient and electric And three sustainable land use a whole1830 lot of bucket. So buildings are big piece, as we said, they account for at least 27% of the G. H. G pollution. The greenhouse gas pollution in massachusetts and this pollution of course is an issue for climate but it is also causing health problems and as we know, the housing crisis and the climate crisis are actually entwined so efficient electric buildings can tackle both1852 at the same time and ensure that people have safe, healthy homes.
So other states are starting to set the policies needed for change. California has launched a new building code which is expected to result in the majority of new buildings being electric but will also help improve the market for retrofits. And that's key Washington and colorado have created building performance standards and Illinois, just passed a groundbreaking new bill last week that is focused on utilities but has implications for buildings and equity and it shows that transformative change is actually politically possible. But I want to be clear, it's hard, right? We have solutions, we know what a lot of the key solutions are, but you're the ones who have1892 to actually craft the policies to get us there and I don't want to make any mistake that that's not an easy thing to do, right? So there's real challenges around building that acting quickly though isn't just good climate strategy, it's good governance and this is due to a key issue that most people are not discussing, which is that speed equals freedom. Better to1912 say, the sooner we act, the more options we have, the longer we wait, the most, the more they will be forced into expensive and inequitable corners. So speed equals freedom. The best time to act boldly is now. So I'm going to pass it over to my colleague at the clark to provide more details on what's actually happening the foundation here and how that relates to massachusetts.
[HEATHER CLARK (RMI):] Sure, I'm just waiting for my presentation to load,1941 but thank you Jacob All right, um,1948 thank you for having us. Um, I want to start by really commending your work on the next generation climate roadmap, including the insistence on inclusion of the new net zero stretch code, which is incredibly important as well as the bills that are being introduced in this session, it is clear that all of you understand1966 the urgency of the climate crisis and also its connection to equity, health, financial well being of jobs, especially within our disadvantaged1974 communities. As you consider some of these issues, I have heard some say we need to choose between housing crisis and climate crisis, that we don't have resources to do both. As someone who has worked in affordable housing for many years before joining our my I want to attest that we don't need to choose. We can create smart climate smart buildings today, they're wonderful projects2000 in massachusetts and other states that show us this path forward. These buildings are also climate resilient and safer to occupy it in a disaster. So what does this look like? Well in new construction, this looks like affordable2014 housing developments such as Cambridge Finch and others that2018 were recently supported by mass CCS passive house building challenge.2022
I want to point out that these buildings Only I had a 1.4% to 2.8% increase in overall cost. But the savings were incredible. They had a 62% reduction in consumption compared to even stretch, stretch code buildings in major rehabs. This might look like Moran Square, which is currently under construction in downtown Fitchburg. This project is retrofitting2051 two beautiful long vacant historic buildings into affordable housing. This will also be the first federal historic Tax credit project in the US to achieve passive house. The project is also using low embodied materials to a retrofit strategy might also look like Castle Square. Deep energy retrofit, which was the first large scale deep energy retrofit in the US. It was completed in 2011 in boston's South End led by low income residents. This project has2084 since inspired deep energy retrofits across the country this spring construction will begin on the final phase of the project in Eva white, deep energy retrofits are strikingly impactful because they cut of buildings energy used by more than half as opposed to standard weatherization, which reduces the buildings energy use between 15 to 20%.
However, like solar two decades ago, deep energy retrofits really needs strategic incentives for the market to transform and prices to come down. They are one solution in our toolbox for existing buildings because they compensate for buildings that can't do much more than electrify, thus reducing massachusetts overall impact on the grid. And the amount of renewables needed to power buildings. I want to note that it's really important to consider that physically constructing the grid and renewables also has associated carbon and financial costs as we reduce the building as. So we should really try to prioritize reducing buildings energy load on site as much as we can as you consider the strategy for massachusetts. Um, I really want to acknowledge that not every building can be a deep energy retrofit. Some can but not all can massachusetts also needs a toolbox with a diverse array of approaches for existing buildings. As they electrify. We can look towards Washington D. C. Where they created a pilot that provided low and moderate income single family homes with solar and heat pumps.
We can also look towards philadelphia's new pilot built2178 to last, which offered income2180 eligible households comprehensive healthy home repairs alongside energy efficiency electrification and solar. We can even look towards main. Um they have committed to installing 100,000 key pumps by 2025 and they're well on track. Last year alone, they installed 28,000 key pumps in colorado. They just passed the by Clean colorado bill, which reduces embody carbon of construction materials in public health and public2209 buildings and roads. Embodied carbon is a huge impact on climate of construction materials. That's 11% of greenhouse gas emissions and it's something that we need to be doing better in massachusetts on
Are my just released a really exciting study that showed buildings can reduce up front and body carbon by as much as 46% with less than a 1% project cost premium massachusetts could also consider an electrification friendly rate structure that stops favouring fossil fuels at the expense of health and climate. So as you formulate legislation to address the climate crisis, we encourage you to be visionary, which I believe you already are um, and intertwined climate solutions with shared goals such as equity, health and economic growth. I'm going2260 to pass it on to my colleague Amor who will discuss the gaps and opportunities in massachusetts to move towards the climate alignment.
[AMAR SHAH (RMI):] Great! Thank you heather. So I really appreciate the opportunity to speak to you all today. Uh, one thing I wanted to acknowledge and heather just pointed to as did uh, to Jacob some of the exciting benefits ahead in this transition is that it's, we're talking about a significant transition and you2292 know, not all overnight, but over the next 235, 10 years. Uh, we, the2298 policies that will be2299 most successful will be the ones that address direct feedback from environmental justice communities impacted workers, housing advocates, etcetera. So, I'll talk about some of the specific policies in massachusetts, but I want to just elevate that note from the outset another if you can go to the next to the next slide. So I want to talk a little bit about the intersection with massachusetts gas system and the current policies that exist today and how they, how they relate. So the Commonwealth 2050 road map, as many of you know, calls for a drastically reduced role for gas and buildings. At the same time, the cost of operating this gas network safely are skyrocketing across the US due to aging and leaky infrastructure.
So we're looking at here are the costs of the U. S. Gas distribution system by year, reported by the American Gas Association and they're2345 not going down. Massachusetts has several specific opportunities ahead as we look at reducing the stranded asset risk and really bending the curve of that investment cost. One example is that Massachusetts adds a new customer to the gas system once2361 every 30 minutes. During the course of this hearing, We could be talking about as many as six new customers. Uh, SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
I saw a note that the presentation is not coming through. Is that is that true for others as well? I'm saying it2378 fine on my end.
Are other people? Is anyone else not seeing it?
Is he a great massachusetts programs and policies enable the transition? Yeah. All right. So we'll continue. Maybe it's just Markey Sorry, Mark
So, uh,2400 so Massachusetts adding new customers about the gas system about once every 30 minutes and all electric special stretch code is one important opportunity to slow this pace as well as municipal innovation, new affordable housing investments such as you know, potentially within Arba should have additional funding support to ensure their electric and efficient in this context. Rate payer funded incentives for brand2422 new Gas equipment with 20 year lifetimes should be phased out of programs like mass safe. And lastly, this also means looking at opportunities for strategic electrification and Decommissioning of the gas system. Essentially thinking of these two measures as related as we think about future potential investments. A triage in transition strategy, you can go to the next slide heather The second big topic is market development2447 and one thing for the retrofit market specifically, I find it important to talk about market development across, let's say a standard technology adoption curve and some of the challenges that presents. So this is not a new, is not a new chart. In fact I lifted it uh,2462 in this particular case from a report from the green and healthy homes initiative about sort of energy and justice and the transition. The first thing to note and whether you can just click through the animations here, um, yeah, three clicks.
Yeah. So on the far left we have a set of projects that are a subset of Holmes where the bill savings are more attractive today, such as oil to electric conversions, but also it's important to note that not every electrification, not every home is going to qualify immediately for an electrification project. Nearly half of heating equipment insults happen when an existing system fails. Really thinking about the on ramps or repair and replace programs can enable the transition related Lee developing a standard package that integrates heat pumps with weatherization. So air sealing and insulation and building consumer trust can can be critical as a foundation for future scale. So what about the rest of the Holmes and in particular how do we ensure that the homes that might get left behind on the gas system have an opportunity to be accelerated so that they're not you know that we're not essentially placing the folks that are most disadvantaged currently have the highest energy burdens currently in the most substandard housing at the back of the line to transition and to realize these economic and health benefits the actions that can be taken today.
One we have to change the economics so we have to address rate structures and electricity and gas. We have to address incentive structures to ensure that they advance electrification but there's also weatherization and barrier mitigation. So this is a term that I've lifted from the latest E. C. Language and mass save language but essentially health and safety upgrades and required deferred maintenance and upgrades that in many cases are standing in the way of the efficiency and electrification projects that are needed. Now these weatherization and barrier mitigation projects actually served multiple goals. They enable electrification so pre electrified but they also reduce gas use save money and improve occupant health and comfort we need LME pilots uh, for electrification. We've seen community based organizations like push buffalo and we act for environmental justice in new york designing their own pilots so that they can understand the requirements of electrification while protecting tenants along the way. And we need innovative pilot investments that represent the scale of the future investment that we're thinking about. Such as for deep energy retrofits. I know massachusetts is doing some exciting things with network geothermal strategic electrification and decommission. Next line.
I won't talk too much about funding and financing, but I will note that there is quite a bit of innovation and thinking happening on this front. One is around opportunities to integrate funding streams for home repair, health and resilience. We've seen states and cities look at opportunity to use, for example federal2639 funds across those joint goals.2642 Um public private partnerships. So the city of Ithaca just announced um sort of private loan facility for $100 million to support electrification and is setting up a fund for LME households2654 to, to support low interest financing as well as a number of other public private partnerships like on bill financing and and green mortgages.
The next2667 slide, just last one. Uh, the last thing to note is as we talked to market actors, we talked to folks that really are excited to dive in and really innovate to bring costs down to standardized projects to bring this to consumers. One thing that many of them expressed an appetite for is regulatory certainty, which was mentioned earlier today? Regulations with dates? So this is a slide. Um It is not these policies are not in effect. This is from new york state's carbon neutral buildings road map which was published in draft form earlier this year. A suite of measures that look out into the future can be critical as well as enabling municipal innovation to signal2707 that the move is incumbent. So that concludes my comments and at this point maybe we can stop in invite any questions SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
but
Mhm. Yeah. Mhm.
Okay.
Okay. SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
Yeah, I'm looking for Senator Barrett. I don't uh seem to see him on this call. There you are. I am was temporarily being thrown up the hearing. Um Jacob are your colleagues? I believe they just completed their testimony but I want to make sure I'm not interfering inappropriately. Yes, that's right. I want to thank you and your colleagues. I I will confess there was a tree, there's a tree Company grinding stumps just started to grind my neighbors stuff just outside my window. Um Are I was looking for? Mhm.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Look,
we lost you there for a bit. Senator Barrett. You were just about talking about tree stumps, but now you're muted.
Mhm.
But you're muted.
Still muted Their Senator Barrett. I was going again sorry about that. The noise has jeffs died down? I'm relieved to say Representative Roy did you have a question or are you going to step in to make sure that now I was just stepping in because we lost you for a moment the R. M. I was done with the presentation and uh I2842 was waiting for any questions from any members of2845 the committee. I do not have a question but back to you, I have a question but I want to yield to members of the committee first. Are there questions of our panel
[REP LIPPER-GARABEDIAN:] chair, Barrett, this is Representative Lipper-Garabedian thank you so much for the informative panel. That was really helpful and I'm sure you can share the slides afterwards um in passing you referenced a law that was just enacted in Illinois and said it was really important and promising could you give us just the highlights of that law?
[CORVIDAE:] Yeah, the quick2882 version and what I want to call about it is focused on utility and actually puts Illinois on a path to more ambitiously accelerate to clean electricity generation2892 through their utilities. The part that I think is particularly impressive here though is it was a not only a bill that moves ambition up a lot faster, but they did a tremendous amount of work with community groups to bring labour on board, bring environmental justice groups on board and actually crash something that would bring deep investments to consumers who might be affected by making sure that they can navigate bills and the rate structure2915 appropriately through that and to make sure that they are engaged in the jobs that will be created through that transition. And so I think there's a there's a really great piece around that. I have to share some links on media articles if that's helpful about it. That looks at how they actually went through the very difficult process because this bill is ambitious enough that there is, it was declared dead several times along the way and they did really nice work with getting different legislators to directly work with different parts of the community to keep bringing them on board and keep that process going to bring a coalition together to make such ambitious policy possible.
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Thank you.
Additional questions of our panel.
[SEN BARRETT:]Yeah, I have a question for army. Perhaps this is a beyond your wheelhouse, but I'm curious as to whether it may be within it. We have a energy efficiency program of the sort that exists around the country and many though not all states uh in our particular case are mass save program is, has a confused governance and I'm interested in the question of governance. The program does not have a ceo the massive program does not have a board of directors. The massive program in fact has no individual associated at all with its operations. Its successes or failures from a legislative point of view, there is no accountability at all. It is a unique construct. No one really to focus on instead responsibility spread diversely among the utilities, the DPU and Energy efficiency advisory council that3021 is truly advisory only and in some um obscure way, the Department of Energy Resources and the Executive Office of Energy and Environmental Affairs, Have you seen other models for state energy efficiency programs in which this mysterious lack of accountability, His remedy and accountability to legislatures and more importantly to the general public is somehow in better shape.
[CORVIDAE:] Yeah, yeah. I'll pass this over into of my colleagues. Want to add anything here a minute, but I will say it's definitely the case that we've seen efficiency programs either Excel or lags, uh, their ambitions based on what the ambition is set for and what sort of accountability structures are in place for it. Right. Uh, that is clearly the case. We, it's a rare example that3075 low ambitions are set and then programs exceed3078 them, they tend to rise to whatever level they were asked to rise to and that's about it. So, um, so I think those are excellent points raised. I don't know, heather if you want to weigh in,
[CLARK:] I could jump in there. So I was previously a resident of massachusetts, I was born in boston. I love massachusetts and I did serve on the EAC when it was first established as the energy efficiency expert when I was doing affordable housing. So I know a3106 lot about what's happening with that save. And I think there's some great aspects of the programs, I think we can be doing a lot more. Um I also wanted to mention early in my career, I worked at nicer to which has a very different models, so in new york state, just kind of as a contrast in new york state, uh the systems benefits charge from everyone's energy bill goes tonight, sir to which is authority and that funding is then um and it's separate from the utilities, so those programs and the programs end up looking a lot different in that case because it goes through an authority. Um some of those programs can be more robust in certain ways um and there's a little bit um uh it has a very different fields of massachusetts. Um there also doing great work to just as as massachusetts, it's
[SEN BARRETT:] thank you. Thank you both. I ask one more question with the committee's lead and yours have, we have a variety of administrative or executive branch proceedings going on at present. There is of course the next three year plan for mass say there is an early draft, which imagines or proposes very few emissions cuts from buildings currently on natural gas and assumes that most of the additional emissions reductions will come3191 from moving today's buildings who are that are on oil, us oil. So we have a a uh lack of ambition with respect to natural gas and residential heating. At the same time, there is a deep you proceeding a so called future of gas proceeding. The only consultants hired to provide expert input into the future of natural gas proceeding before our deep you are on the payroll of the utilities. I mean literally that's true the DPU decided that they would hirer all the expert put on board to put together the numbers. This is at odds with the previous administration activity where The state government has hired its own panel of experts to provide independent input. That was true for the 2030 and 2050 clean energy plans and uh 2000 and 50 decarbonization road map that the state put together and released last december.
But here, for whatever reason, the DPU instead has the utilities having selected the consultants and paying the consultants and well that doesn't absolutely guarantee that they will be a lack of objectivity. It creates what we lawyers would call the appearance of a conflict of interest which is sapping in terms of3274 so confidence at the3276 outset. What, what are you seeing other states do in terms of grappling with this admittedly difficult issue of moving today's buildings heated by cheap fracked imported natural3291 gas off natural gas to. I think we foresee a significant issue again, admittedly in helping homeowners finance those uh that movement when their current system fails to electric heat pumps as an alternative. I've, are there any financing mechanisms in place that would enable, for example, homeowners to finance this transition the way we do a mortgage Over the course of 20 or 30 years. Are there other mechanisms in place that will help businesses and homeowners deal with this cost so that this seeming bias towards maintaining a significant role for natural gas can be accumulated in some way on the part of the executive branch.
[SHAH:] Yeah, the I think um a couple parts, a couple parts of that question. So the first part is, you know, how do we think about, how do we think about tackling the gas demand and the use of gas in our buildings at the same time as we recognize current conditions where the economics for example, for oil to electric might be more attractive or we still have some structural changes to make, to encourage, encourage that. And I think really a two pronged approach is key, like we need investments and accountability to setting up our buildings with gas consumption for four electrification and that includes the weatherization, sort of pre electrification investments and that actually dovetails well with this general challenge, which is that not everyone is in a position to swap their heating equipment, some people bought their heating equipment yesterday and so that, you know, whereas, you know, weatherization or barrier mitigation, those are measures that are broadly valuable uh and in many cases independent when you bought your heating equipment and so investments that sort of set the stage as well as investments that kind of electrify in pilot form and experiment with different models to kind of build data. Those are useful even in the gas context. Uh and we should have milestones related to that um so that we and then similarly we should have market development milestones tied to heat pump deployment, where there is a lot to learn with those initial Holmes related to what kind of packages should be standardised. So is it heat pumps plus air ceiling plus insulation, is that sort of the most common standard package? Um how do we communicate with consumers who are not used to using this technology about how to operate, how to operate their heating system. Right. Those are things that we can learn, you know from early market development, even if it's sort of the transition to oil from oil to electric, but we need both, is what I would say and Jacob might have a word on the financing side.
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Yeah, yeah. Heather, I think Jacobs was going to say something I have something to add to, but
[CORVIDAE:]uh let me just say in terms of financing, there are definitely other financing mechanisms and we've seen some great other pieces moved out there, the, the creation of a state green bank, it's something that's proven very popular in other places and has been a really powerful tool for helping provide dollars to move this. There's also some emerging potential, this is more the innovation space around actually tapping mortgage lending directly. It is the financing mechanisms we already know how to use and3506 there's actually ways to potentially in bringing a green bank, bring in local credit unions, bring in utilities to be part of the entry point for that. So you're reaching people where they're already going for financing and they can bring this in through a refinance mechanism or things like that. There are products from Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac et cetera that make this very doable. Um, and there's a host of other potential solutions. They're happy to go into more details we need, but I just want to highlight a few of those. The other thing that I think you may want to think about in terms of how you might be in a position to bring together different agencies around this is connecting health agencies with energy programs. So maybe particularly starting with households that are already having high medical burdens according to asthma, Right? We know a gas stove in the house as much as I love cooking on a gas stove for many years shows a 42% increase of asthma symptoms, household with asthma symptoms for Children. It's a really dramatic piece of health data that we need to bring these efforts together to address
[CLARK:] and it just add to that and I think that's so important that the health connection to. But I mean the main, the main thing is is clear, we need to get our buildings off of fossil fuels as soon as possible. So as you mentioned, making sure at the same time if you're able to weatherization or even go further, that's a great opportunity. However, we need to also think about other things like, you know, where are you putting your incentives, are they going into gas efficient boilers versus electrification programs? Like it betters decisions that could be3600 made um, in massachusetts that we call it a spark spread. So the difference between the cost of electric vs gas in massachusetts, that's not very favourable in other states. It's a lot closer. So when you electrify you actually end up saving quite a bit of money vs massachusetts, it's a lot harder. You can consider changing the rate structure. Um, we've been doing a little research on that of3623 things like if you have a heat pump, your, your rate structure look different. SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
Thank you. Thank you very much. Are there additional questions of our panel um, if not we want to again, thank you very much for making time and joining us. This has been most helpful and we look forward to continuing to engage with you all if you're willing as time goes on. Okay? Yeah, Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, we now want to hear Representative Ciccolo I know is with us as well and we would like to hear from her at this time.
[REP CICCOLO:] [HB3275] [HB3276] Thank you. Chairman Barrett Chairman Roy and members of the committee. Uh, I apologize for my technical difficulties earlier, just when you called on me, my computer froze, but hopefully you can all hear me now. I'm here to testify on two bills 3275, which is the residential pace bill and 3276 which is the commercial pace bill. And I'm glad that your, I'm particularly glad the committee is focusing on building efficiency, which is so critically important in helping us achieve our climate goals. Uh, and I was pleased that the end of the conversation that we were just having with the prior presenters was talking about how to finance these improvements. Um, right now in massachusetts, we have about five years ago passed the Commercial Pace program which stands for property assessed clean energy. And basically that program allows commercial property owners to Finance for up to 20 years the improvements, the energy efficiency improvements on their buildings.
But there's a catch, it needs to be done in conjunction with the municipality which then takes the improvement and puts it on the property tax bill as a betterment. And3741 it's a terrific way to extend the cost of the improvements out over3745 time, especially important for commercial property owners who may not hold their properties for more than a couple of years since they may be just investors. Um, So mass development runs the program. It took them3757 approximately a few years to get it off the ground. And cities and towns still have to take a municipal vote at the executive level to opt in. So that program is still ramping up. But at the beginning of this session, I spoke with the program manager, Wendy O. Malley and she said one of the things would be incredibly helpful would be to expand the eligible type of projects to include new construction. So if a commercial property owner is building a brand new building or expanding a wing, it could then they could then apply through this program and essentially to put a betterment3789 on the property over time. What's great about this program is that the3795 state does not have to use um3797 government financing. It's all financed by the private sector.
The state just serves as the sort of3803 conduit or facilitator to make these loans happen. But it's also important to note that if you, most people know that when you take a loan on property, when you sell the property, you typically have to pay off the loan in full, which acts as a real deterrent to using these types of loans, which3820 might increase your your project costs. So3823 with this system, with the3825 property assessed, clean energy, you don't have to pay it off.3828 It's passed along to the next property owner and the benefit of the energy efficiency improvements can be realized over time. Um and you don't have to essentially reap the cost savings in a shorter period of time. So my see pace Bill 3 to 76 expands the eligible type of proper projects to the new construction per the mass developments request to see that happen. But it also does one other important thing the legislation has originally written allowed for the hookup of natural gas lines and expansion of natural gas lines to be financed through the Pace program, which at this point we know is absolutely absurd and something the commonwealth absolutely should not be funding.
So I think that's a really critical piece to update that legislation on the residential side. We have no program and we would like to ask mass development in the state to develop a program for residential property owners similar to the commercial side financed with the traditional banks. It is a different sector of the banking world, so they would have to develop new partners. But we think this has to happen right away. Buildings are aging. We know that it's harder to retrofit aging buildings, but they're not the only ones aging. We also have an aging baby boomer generation who are the largest cohort of people owning homes. And it's very difficult to ask folks who are looking potentially to downsize in the next two or three years to be making major energy efficiency improvements to their homes when they may not be keeping their homes for very long again, the payback period for the energy efficiency savings that they would reap Is not realized in a short period of time. And so to be able to spread out those improvements over 20 years and more importantly to pass those improvements on to the next property owner because it's paid on the tax bill. Um as a betterment is really an incredibly wonderful way to incentivize this to happen at a much faster rate. So there are two very simple bills really um just asking the state to amend the commercial program and add a residential program and I hope the committee will report them both favorably out of the committee. So thanks again for letting me testify. SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
I guess no questions is a good is a good thing if anyone has
Senator Barrett, I'm not sure if you are Representative Roy to take over temporarily. If Representative Roy can hear my voice at this time, I can hear you loud and clear and I will take over and just let me know when you are back. Um First of all there are any questions for Representative Ciccolo
hearing. None. I wanna thank you Representative for your testimony and I look forward to discussing it further with you. Thank you. I do see that Representative sally Kerans is here and would like to testify. So let me call on Representative Kerans Mhm.
[REP KERANS:] [HB3306] [SB2147] Thank you very much Mr Chairman thank you to the members of this committee and to Senator Barrett who's been uh talking about energy efficiency since 1980 three or 4 anyway and um just I'm grateful to the work of this committee on many fronts including energy efficiency. At the moment. I am here to testify and I appreciate being taken out of turn on House 33 oh4043 six uh, and act to uh, increase, uh, improve outdoor lighting, conserve energy and increase dark sky visibility Occasionally. Were presented with an opportunity to solve a problem that negatively impacts the health of millions as well as our environment and which is easily solved. House 3306 and Senate 2147 uh, present us with such an opportunity. This legislation is based on documentation established through experiments over many years by physicians and scientists, uh, demonstrating the ill effects of blue nighttime light on people, birds, animals, pollinators lest we think as I did that glaring white, there are really no white led lights. They're all blue. It's just an annoyance. Another fact of suburban and urban life. It isn't, it's much more affecting our health in several ways.
More than 20 peer reviewed studies point to health effects from these lights, including obesity, diabetes, mood disorders, Breast and prostate cancer. A study of4117 110,000 nurses revealed a direct relationship between a woman's neighborhood nighttime level of light before diagnosis and her later risk of developing breast cancer. I'll cite that study in my written testimony so it's no wonder that the american medical Association is on board with this idea. These lights are in4139 our hometowns and our downtowns parking lots, football and baseball fields and in our street lights. My home is subjected to two of these. I no longer need a nightlight in my upstairs bathroom because I'm greeted with the glare of this white streetlight when I when I go in and in one of our bedrooms, you cannot have the curtains open when you when you sleep. So luckily there are strategies we can employ to mitigate these effects. And this legislation outlines them full shielding for a new replacement state and municipal lighting requiring use with lights with CCT below 3000 K. you will hear more about this from others testifying. I hope that you will give due consideration. I really thank rep Garballey and the team of doctors and scientists who have documented as well the effects of blue nighttime light on our environment for writing this legislation and giving us the opportunity to address a pervasive problem that's not only intrusive and annoying but damaging to our bodies and the environment. So I thank you for the opportunity to testify and I urge you to report that out favorably. Thank you so much.
Well, thank you Representative, are there any questions from members of the committee for Representative Kerans
I see none. And I thank you again for your testimony and look forward to talking to you about it further. I've returned as well and I want to I'm grateful to you. Great welcome home Representative Mr. Chairman at you can guide me as to whether there are if there are no questions for representative currents, whether there are additional legislators wishing to testify at this time. If not, we could we can move on to hearing from MAPC There is Representative Kushmerek is here and I also wanted to just make note that Representative Meschino Oh, uh, for the house side on the TUE committee has joined us. Apparently, her setting was on central time, so she apologized for being tired, but it's great to have her here and I'll turn it right back to you, senator.
Thanks so much for for taking my place for a spell. Yes, could we hear from the Representative please? Michael,
[REP KUSHMEREK:] [HB3320] [SB2152] Good morning Chair Barrett Chair Roy, thank you for this opportunity to speak regarding H 3320 an act establishing a green Initiative bill which is co presenting alongside Representative Higgins and its companion bill, Senate S 2152. Uh, mr Chairman as you spoke so4307 eloquently this morning about the ambitious goals of the climate roadmap. Um you know, it's critical that the housing sector in all communities be engaged in the solution, particularly housing in our gateway communities. Often because of the exorbitant costs in our communities to enhance and retrofit aging infrastructure and an older housing stock. We see that we lag behind in addressing carbon footprint.
So Gateway communities like my hometown, Pittsburgh, uh excuse me, are often the ones that continue to fall further behind in addressing our carbon footprint and conversion to cleaner and greener housing stock. So right now there is little incentive for private property owners and landlords to make it more affordable for their renters, utilities are often paid are almost exclusively paid directly by their renters. Um and those who would stand to benefit directly from improving insulation, heating and cooking supply are often unable to make that investment because they're renters and they don't own the property. Um And so renters continue to live in uh in poor housing conditions while paying often the highest utility costs, which thus continue the cycle of poverty.
Uh And so this bill would provide incentives for4399 Gateway cities um and owners4402 to make improvements to retrofit their housing stock with high efficiency alternatives, thus making it more affordable for renters, reducing the carbon footprints of housing and gateway cities uh and improving housing stock in our urban communities. Uh and I believe later this morning, you'll hear from, from experts and advocates um then Hellerstein from environment massachusetts and sarah dueling from mass Climate Action Network and certainly thank RMI for their compelling presentation earlier today. And so I ask you uh chairman and the committee members for a favorable report on this bill, having to field any questions.
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Thank you very much? Representative, are there questions
uh we want to thank you sir for, were testifying this morning
at this time if there are no additional legislators uh here with us, we would like to hear uh from a number of people in connection with S 2202 and H 3350 and act relative to building energy and decarbonization I believe at MAPC Has a panel ready to present to the committee uh Cammie and other and colleagues.
[CAMERON PETERSON (METROPOLITAN AREA PLANNING COMMISSION:] Good morning. Hopefully you all can see and hear me. Thank you to the committee and to chair barrett and chair Roy for the invitation to speak today. My name is Cammie Peterson. I'm the director of Clean Energy at the Metropolitan Area Planning Council MAPC The regional Planning Agency for greater boston in this role. I serve on the Global Warming Solutions Act Implementation Advisory Committee. The GWSIAC And share that buildings workgroup and I'm an appointed councillor to the Energy efficiency advisory council of the EEAC Representing cities and towns where I also co chair the EA six Equity Working Group. I greatly appreciate the ability to speak with you all today and appreciate4519 being invited to share some of my perspectives from these multiple seats and the voices that we're hearing from our municipal stakeholders As I was invited to touch on mass save and similar programs. I'll start there and then I'll provide some testimony on H 3350 and S2202 enact relative to building energy and decarbonization.
As you mentioned that bill grew out of the recommendations of the GWS A I see buildings workgroup that I4543 referenced a moment ago, so this morning, we heard about the global climatic importance and multiple benefits of building decarbonization at the national level, from our friends at army, we similarly contend that decarbonization, the building sector enables a triple win, providing a powerful tool to stimulate the economy by growing the local workforce and supply chain, reducing energy burden and utility costs for our citizens who are least able4567 to afford it and making our buildings more resilient, healthier and comfortable for all for relatively small investments, greener buildings can achieve significant long term costs and greenhouse gas emissions savings. And with the explicit support from the legislature, these investments can also address historic inequities and disinvestment. So downscaling a bit more from the army perspective to massachusetts, from the seat that I have at the tables where I sit, there are a number of tools currently at our disposal due to the groundbreaking passage of laws over the years by this body.
We commend you on the road map bill signed into law earlier this year and the rigorous planet requires for the state, including more robust targets, environmental justice protections and improvements to critical levers such as the stretch code. Our cities and towns are eagerly awaiting the draft language proposed for both the update to the regular stretch code and the new opt in municipal specialist stretch code that Senator Barrett spoke of earlier and there is strong eagerness for that new code to be truly net zero. Several communities stand ready to adopt it if it is massive is another effective tool that advances building energy efficiency and in large part due to the road map bill, it is now explicitly tied to meeting the state's climate commitments. Massive is the collaborative of massachusetts, natural gas and electric utilities and energy efficiency service providers that collectively we know as the program administrators, RPS that administer the three year energy efficiency plans and offer services, rebates, incentives, information trainings, education to residents, businesses and communities to make energy efficiency upgrades.
The A C advises on the energy efficiency planning process and plan implementation and provides input and guidance to the pA's and department of Public utilities. The DPU, As we near the end of the planning process for the 2022-2024 plan. This October we await updated language from the pA's in which we've been urging them to meet more fully the state's climate and equity goals through multiple resolutions. Our leverage in these discussions and negotiations is in these kind of documents. At the end of october EU Members will vote on a resolution on whether we advise the DPU to approve the new three year energy efficiency plan after which it will be submitted to the DPU to undergo its review and determination. Okay, this point underlines that while we now have many of the systems and tools intact to advance the decarbonization of buildings. Thanks in large part to the great work of this Legislature, there remains much more to do to accelerate, expand, add to strengthen fund and deploy these systems and tools.
We are consistently from our cities and towns that mass save needs to do more to support place based community partnerships to shift funding more fully to equitable electrification, weatherization, barrier mitigation, active demand management, diverse workforce development and whole building retrofits and needs to set metrics attached to these priorities to which the programs are accountable and transparent. It remains to be seen whether the4741 current mass save structure can support the scale of building sector decarbonization needed to reach and electrify the one million homes in 300 to 400 million square feet of commercial space by 2030.4751 That is called for in the interim clean energy and climate plan. While prioritizing those historically underserved and addressing energy burdens. We were so glad to see the panoply of bills this session that would advance and accelerate these goals. I'd like not just to spend a final moment highlighting the ways that age 3350 and as 2202 in particular, meet the moment on a number of important fronts.
We have a choice between very expensive future payments are investing how to spur on the industry and accelerate the decarbonization of existing buildings. H 3350 S 2202 encourage the adoption of climate smart design and technologies will also increase in consumer and contractor familiarity. This is key. First, the bill addresses emissions from existing buildings. It establishes a new division at DOER that is focused on building energy and emissions reductions and requires that DOER establish a statewide building performance standards and a fund in alignment with our climate commitments guided by robust feedback from communities and impacted sectors.
As we've heard, boston and Cambridge have led the way with their building energy reporting disclosure ordinances and it's time we learned from and built on their examples and those throughout the country and implemented that statewide To this end, we also support H 3366 and S 2032 an act relative to better buildings4828 that we heard rep. Robinson and Senator Rausch speak to earlier, which similarly establishes a statewide building performance standard. Mhm. Second on age 33504837 s 2202. It requires that the new opt in municipal specialist net zero stretch code be incorporated into the regular stretch code by 2025. That's being adopted by4848 many more of our communities throughout the Commonwealth. And the base code by 2028 that's applying to all communities. All new buildings and major renovations should be future proof to meet our climate commitments.
Thirdly, the bill strengthens and expands the incentives offered by the commonwealth so as relates to mass save, it would strengthen the massive program to require program administrators to set targets for serving populations historically underserved by the program. It would Moore require that neither the EU nor the DPU approve the plan if it does not demonstrate alignment and compliance with climate commitments and as relates to cities and towns each 3350 and S 2202 at an incentive for municipal adoption of the new Net zero specialist option stretch code through a new Green Plus Communities program that's focused on community wide climate planning and action.
Green plants would complement the successful Green communities program which similarly accompanied the introduction of the stretch energy code in 2009 cities and towns have been and then we will continue to be our climate leaders. I get to work with them4909 every day and I4910 can say that it's an honor and they are up against a lot of challenges in this area to really be able to accelerate. They're decarbonization to the levels needed to meet the moment. And we all know that massachusetts is a national pioneer. We should have the policy financing and technical tools within our climate and clean energy programs to address the climate crisis and implement the roadmap that has so deftly prepared the way we'll be supplying written testimony that provides more details on these and other sections of the bill so that I thank you for your time today and look forward to continuing these discussions. SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
Thank you very much, Miss Peterson, Are there questions of MAPC
[ROY:] Yes. Mr Chairman. I do have a question. I'd like to go back on the mass save peace and the new provisions from the road map bill that requires masssave to uh take into consideration uh much more than they are doing now. And I know in your testimony, you said that it remains to be seen whether that 2022-2024 plan will deliver. I'd like if you would share with us what you'd like to see in that plan and what you'd like this committee to do relative to mass save.
[PETERSON:] Thank you. Chair Roy. And it's a very good question. And I will try to be brief because I could probably speak to all day about things that I'd like to see in the plan and into the future. Um we've been working very hard at MAPC As part of the council and on the equity working group, really trying to raise up the attention that's paid the investments, the budget, the savings that are seen5007 out of our underserved populations. So those from non participant studies have been shown to be moderate income residents, renters, those that are english isolated and small and micro businesses. The programs over time have not done enough to really support and provide energy efficiency improvements to these populations. It is high time. They did so and had clear metrics that they were accountable to that were ambitious and allowed for much greater investment in those communities and really a focus on weatherization barrier mitigation and electrification in those communities. We don't want them to be left behind while we electrify those that are better able to afford it.
So I think those are some of the key things that I'm really looking for as we hope to see an update of the plan by October six,5050 that's the date that we've been given at this time. Um, we will have that only5054 a few short weeks before the end of october where we statutorily do have to pass a resolution on whether or not we suggest the DPU approved that plan. There's a lot still to be done in these coming weeks. We're hoping there still will be greater numbers and understanding of how heat pumps will be implemented throughout the program and reductions in where fossil fuel investments are made. The bill I spoke to and the the equity working group and has been speaking to this and the interim clean energy and climate plan certainly stated that fossil-fuel investments really should be completely eliminated from that plan by 2025. So that's something I've been working hard on reducing where those investments are in this plan and hope to see fully eliminated through mass save funding By 2025.
So that's something I think that I would love to see the legislature really carry forward. Um, I think there's also the ability to really make sure that more accountability and transparency is part of the programs and that we are held to transforming the way the programs are addressing climate and equity in that three year plan and in subsequent three year plans. So my hope is that we are able to really transform how these programs are used in the Green Communities Act. Came about Over 10 years ago. It really was focused on energy efficiency and that made sense for a long time. Now we're really shifting to have that focus be much5132 more broadly on equity and climate as well. And I think we need to continue to transform the systems that deliver the programs in order to do that best effectively.
[ROY:] Thank you so much. I appreciate the answer to the question. And I think I would invite you to get together with me or other members of the committee after the plan is released so5154 that you can share further thoughts on that.
SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
Thank you. I'd be happy to speak, speak more about this, appreciate that. Thank you.
[SEN BARRETT:] Mr. Chairman. Thank you mr Chairman. And your your very good suggestion. And suggests further to me that perhaps we should have an oversight hearing or find some time as part of an already scheduled hearing to hear comments about the draft plan perhaps after it's released. That's something we should talk about amongst the committee to see what the members would like us to do. So I take your point that there should be further feedback here. As soon as the draft plans available, I'd like to follow up5196 with a question if I might. Um, I'm beginning to be concerned uh, Cammie that the incentives within mass save aren't potent enough to really drive retrofits. I've seen some data that suggests for example, that a surprisingly small percentage 3% is one figure that has been thrown out to me of all Massachusetts houses are subject to a mass save audit in any reasonable time period suggesting to me that if there really is going to be conversions away from oil and gas of the kind, we need to meet our limits and sub limits they're going to have to occur perhaps entirely outside the mass save program.
Once in a while I worry that massive is itself in truth in danger of being a niche program that has never had the scale5251 to reach.5252 The proportion of buildings that we need to reach in any given year or any given decade or any given three year span. Is there a possibility that the scale of mass safe from the very beginning has been too small and that we need a fundamental reordering of the programs reach or alternatively, we need to forget about mass save incentives. We need to5280 assume that they will not motivate enough5282 behavior change across the entire universe of massachusetts building owners and we fundamentally need to5289 go to a program of5290 tax credits greater than those we currently grant and really reserve mass save for a few targeted initiatives, perhaps in environmental justice communities. But for the first time conclude that it simply isn't up to undertaking5306 the statewide conversion of middle class Holmes that we need to see.
[PETERSON:] It's a very good question and something that I've been giving. And I'm sure a lot of my colleagues and others on these panels have been giving a lot of thought. Um, I think the way that I see it as a, as a both and I do see a role for mass save into the future. I think it's important that it does transition and transform to more fully meet the decarbonization that we need to see what you're right was not part of its initial mandate. Um, and that it needs to do a much better job in a lot of these ways of reaching those throughout the commonwealth and serving those that we've been putting the system to benefit charge they've been paying into it, but not necessarily reaping those benefits, but the scale of5351 the issue, I believe it is much greater than that. And I5354 think we might have to look beyond just mass save.
I, I feel pretty confident that we will have to look beyond just mass save in order to achieve the scale that we need and as5363 quickly as we need to, I'm hopeful that with the new commission on clean heat that the administration announced that that's one step forward, I believe there's a number of other statewide levers that also need to be enacted, um, things like like a building performance standard, like a heating fuel cap on buildings, which is something that the interim CCP references. Um, and like many of the other policy suggestions and, and pieces of legislation that we've heard about. I think tax credits and others could certainly be a lever there. Um, and I think we're going to need to more fully transform more of the way that are secretariats5398 and our businesses and our associations have climate as part of their mandate. I think we've started to do this thankfully and wisely in the road map bill that was enacted and need to Moore internalize how climate is a part of all of those systems in order to really5413 ramp up to meet the moment
[SEN BARRETT:] [SB2202] [HB3350] if I could ask one more question and then I'll ask again if committee5422 members have some is am I right in5425 a, taking a look at Senate 2202 and H 3350 and perceiving the transitions that the bill anticipates whereby a municipal opt in specialist stretch energy code eventually melds with the base code. Am I correct in reading that as taking away the local5446 option altogether, beginning in a certain year and by the way, I'm not necessarily opposed to giving municipal opt in a certain important generous shelf life but after that possibly imposing a mandate in out towns that haven't acted up to that date. But is that actually apart legally of what this language commands that for a while they will be municipal opt in. But that by5471 2028, apparently all towns that haven't so opted in must then move to adopt the specialist stretch energy code promulgated By the end of 2022.
[PETERSON:] You are correct. And so the way that the bill outlines how that that transaction would happen is that originally as it is now, it would be an opt in program. There's be the current stretch code and this new municipal option specialist stretch code By 2025. The specialist stretch code would meld with the existing stretch code so that all those who are currently stretched code communities which was over 280 I believe at this point um, would then be Behold into that net zero stretch cold Code and then by 2028 that it would become part of the base code and that actually mirrors language in the interim CECP whereby the hope would be for a net zero code to be the base code by that time.
Thank you. Thank you for clarifying that. Are there additional questions of M. A. P. C.
If not we want to thank you very much for testifying today and look forward to. I want to echo the comments of the house chair, We look forward to continuing to engage with both independent5551 outside perspectives as the fall goes on and as the year goes on, thank you very much. I look forward to it as well. Uh you know, it occurs to me at this time to make mention of the the committee's desire that each witness limit herself or himself to three minutes um for fundamental testimony. I know we've with our, with our certain special guests, we've we've look past that requirement, but I know many of you are waiting to testify5583 so we should probably begin to observe it. I'd like to there are a couple of local government officials I'd like to hear out of turn a little bit because I know they have other duties that they must attend to is Mark Sand5598 Dean Selectmen. Mark Sandrine here. If he is, we would be happy to hear from him next. Yes I am. Hi Mark why don't you testify before the committee?
[MARK SANDEEN:] [SB2132] [HB3366] [HB3276] Well, thank you so thank you so much. Chair Barrett5614 and Chair Roy and other members of the committee. I really appreciate you providing the opportunity to testify today. My name is Mark Sandino to select board member in the town of Lexington where we have been quite active encouraging our residents to participate in massive programs and electrifying their buildings by adapting solar energy systems, installing heat pumps and switching to electric vehicles. Also, president of Mass solar and nonprofit organization focused on equitably electrifying our buildings. Mass solar supports 2132. An act instituting government structure for mass save, which would revise mass saves mission and governance to focus on greenhouse gas emission reductions and really appreciate the regular reports to the administration and the committee that are included in the bill. We also support the proposed reorganisation of the Mass Save board to include environmental justice, community members and experts in building electrification and building energy efficiency experts. Uh Senator Barrett, you spoke earlier today about the importance of fast action towards meeting the commonwealth school of electrifying our buildings.
I'd recommend that this committee consider broadening the S 2132 requirements for mass a board membership to include experts and electrifying our buildings, experts in residential, solar energy installation or experts and active energy demand management systems such as energy storage systems. I think it's going to be important for mass save to provide an effective and trusted guidance to homeowners who are trying to electrify their homes while at the same time increasing the resilience and in reducing the burden on the electrical grid as we electrify our homes and vehicles. I'd also like to speak in support of age 3366 better buildings, which is focused on building energy use and disclosure. In 2018, the select board in Lexington adopted the Getting to net zero emissions plan to electrify all of Lexington's residential commercial municipal buildings To 100% renewable electricity over 25 years.
And the first step in that plan is to establish an energy reporting requirement for our largest buildings in age 3366 would provide the type of energy reporting we need to accomplish those goals and would be much preferred to bringing our own local building energy use disclosure warrant article by the way, we're calling it beauty bu. D Beauty article two town meeting next spring. I5762 would also support reps Nicola's age 3276 commercial pace bill. The Lexington getting to net zero emissions plan calls for the town to provide commercial property owners with access to commercial programs, commercial pace programs And Lexington has experienced a dramatic boom in new commercial development and this bill would provide the financing needed to develop high performance new buildings. So I would ask that the committee, please report S 2132 H 3366 H 3276 favorably out of committee. Thank you so much. Uh thank you. Mr Sandino, Are there questions of Mr Sandrine?
He will be happy to hear that the Climate Act already expands the mass a board very specifically To require that the governor appoint one expert and commercial building energy efficiency. Another expert and residential building energy efficiency And a 3rd new appointee, an expert in advanced building technology. The governor's requirement to expand The mass a board by these three appointments became law on July 25 of this year. The governor has yet to make those appointments. Something that this chair uh, significantly. Uh, well, regrets, are there questions of Mr Sandrine? SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
Well, I appreciate leadership and thank you. Thank you. We want to hear from Councillor Patricia Nolan uh, of the city of Cambridge. If Councillor Nolan is with us,
by the way, I I want to stand corrected. It's not the mass a board, it's the board of building regulations and standards. So there's a, there's a subtle policy difference there. I want to correct the record with respect to the governor's three appointments. He has failed to make them and they would significantly help us with the building emissions problem. But I want to correct the record additional questions for martin. Let's move on to Councilor Nolan Council, are you with us?
I I guess counsellor Nolan isn't with us at the current time, I
do see counselor Nolan. Um, but I'm not hearing her,
so it doesn't look like you're muted, but when you spoke, I couldn't you're not having any sound. SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
Why don't5922 we look forward to hearing from Councillor Nolan? As soon as as soon as she is able to liberate liberate her technology there. Why don't we move on at this moment to hearing those who have signed up to testify with respect to last 20 to 32 in5938 h 33 66 act relative to better buildings? I think that Ben Hellerstein is prepared to testify from environment massachusetts. Ben are you with us? Yes I am. Can you hear me? We can't Great um
[BEN HELLERSTEIN:] well thank you so much to the chairs and members of the committee for the opportunity to offer our testimony5961 today. My name is Ben Heller Stein and I'm the state director for Environment massachusetts, the statewide environmental advocacy organization. We work to protect clean air, clean water and open spaces together with our thousands of citizen members and supporters across the commonwealth. And I'm testifying today in support of two bills to reduce fossil fuel use in our buildings and transition to clean heating systems. The Better Buildings Act, filed by rep Robinson and Senator Rausch as well as the Green Act filed by rep Higgins rep Kushmerek and Senator Crighton um and the main message I want to deliver today is that these bills are action bills, they are feasible and necessary actions to meet and surpass the commonwealth climate goals. Um it's recently reported in the Boston globe Massachusetts is falling far behind the pace needed on building electrification, installing heat pumps and fewer than6013 500 homes in 2020.
The administration's responses to appoint yet6018 another commission, the Commission on Clean heat to spend a year studying the problem if the administration is slow to act, it's up to the legislature to step in and the two bills were supporting today are action bills that will take important concrete and tangible steps towards meeting and exceeding the climate goals. You said in March. The better Buildings Act will provide a framework for reducing fossil fuel use in carbon emissions and promoting electrification in large buildings such as office buildings, apartments, hospitals and university campuses. And it closes an important gap in our current policies related to energy6052 efficiency in our buildings.6053 Building codes require new buildings to meet certain standards for energy efficiency and the new option stretch code will push that even further, but there are currently no statewide requirements for existing buildings to become more energy efficient over time. We need to address emissions from existing buildings to meet our climate goals. And our biggest buildings, which represent a disproportionate share of our emissions, are a good place to start.
Um you've heard about some of the specifics of this policy, so I won't go into all the details, but I will just note that the boston City Council approved a similar energy performance standards for large buildings last week. Um there are cities from reno Nevada to ST louis Missouri6092 that have taken similar action and passing this bill will help massachusetts joined the leading group of cities and states um that are tackling this issue. Our second bill today, the Green Act will support massachusetts. Gateway cities, as well as smaller communities with similar demographics in leading the way towards a cleaner and healthier6111 future. We've heard from rep Higgins and Kushmerek about some of the challenges in tackling uh6117 building emissions in these cities. Um, and the Green Act will establish a new program focused on retrofitting housing in the gateway cities as well as smaller communities with similar populations to be energy efficient, fossil fuel free and powered with renewable electricity. It will address some of the most challenging building stock in massachusetts while developing models that can be replicated and scaled up in communities of all shapes and sizes. So to conclude, I ask you to report favorably on the better buildings Act and the Green Act. These bills are action bills that will take necessary steps towards a cleaner greener and healthier future for all of us in massachusetts. Thank you for your consideration.
[SEN BARRETT:] I have a question, Ben, the actions taken by the city of boston and the city of Cambridge are useful and constructive models I think for other places. But we've talked a lot to the city of boston. My staff and I have and they've gone very, um, they've been very gingerly about administering penalties for failure to report. They've been really looking for voluntary compliance. And to date they have been happy to get6203 roughly 85-90% reporting compliance without bothering to go after the building owners who are recalcitrant. You're the legislation we're talking about here would administer penalties for failure to report. There are due process issues that are raised. Maybe that's why6221 the city of boston stayed away from this. Sometimes tenants are responsible for6227 having the requisite information. Sometimes building owners have the requisite information. You don't want to penalize the wrong us party slow to act. Uh I guess that again is one reason why boston Cambridge have been careful not to impose any penalties. What would you have the statewide legislation do in this respect?
[HELLERSTEIN:] Yeah. Well let me just say first that um you know, penalties are certainly not the goal.6255 Uh you know that that we hope that with this legislation that you know 100% or is close to 100% as possible of buildings will um you know, voluntarily comply both with the reporting requirement um as well as with the standards over time. And the legislation envisions that D. O. Er will engage in an active outreach process to to make sure that the owners of these buildings are aware of the requirements um and that they have the tools um that will help them to uh report as easily as possible. Um And then when it comes time to comply with the standards that they have the incentives and and the technical assistance available to do so. Um I think the question of who is responsible for doing the reporting is an important one um as much as possible. We want to try to take that burden away from the tenants. And so you know, one of the things that this bill would do is it would um allow building owners to request that the utilities actually report the data. We think that that could be um more efficient and less bird in some6319 way to to do what the bill would envision and um I think ultimately they're, you know, they're do need to be some sort of penalties or you know, some uh kind of push for building owners to actually comply. You know, I think that voluntary action will will get us so far. And certainly we've, you know, we've seen um you know, the state has made important progress under the mass save programme, I think, you know, as you and others have pointed out it's not enough and um you know, I think at some point um you know, we we need to start requiring some of these improvements and you know, certainly the larger buildings are a good place to start
[BARRETT:] just as6356 a follow up question, I just want to emphasize that Sometimes oftentimes it's building owners, but oftentimes it's building tenants who control energy use and have access to how much they have used. So would we be equally tough on tenants as and by the way these of course for the most part of commercial tenants, we're talking about large buildings. So we're not talking about renters or condo owners. For the most part we're talking about uh independent small businesses that rent space and large commercial establishments where the where the building owner may not be the recipient of the data in question.
[HELLERSTEIN:] Mhm. Yeah. So the bill um envisions that you know at least as far as the reporting um That that that that could be delegated to the utility. So that essentially the you know the building owner could just authorise the utility to disclose that data to the state um in order to reduce the burden on the tenants. Um You know, I think that the question of um you know to what extent with the tenants need to be involved in actually making the improvements to the building. I mean I think we're um you know I would say the burden should fall primarily on uh the owners, you know since they're the ones that you know sort of have the um you know financial stake in the property long term. I think there may be some cases where um you know particularly have a longer term tenants that it may make sense for them to be more actively involved in making some of these improvements. Um But you know I think the burden um you know again we would fall primarily on the owners.
[BARRETT:] I'll certainly let the topic for now. We can pursue it later. I will observe that in my district which includes a large stretch of 128. Uh Long term leases are signed by commercial tenants, they typically will sign this least for 10 years, 20 years and will have all the building data. So the so called building owner whoever that may be um May not be responsible for making energy improvements in the building. It may be up to the long term tenant who has customized the building for its use and may as a consequence under contract be the person responsible for such changes. But we can pursue this later. I think it's a difficult problem legally in real property law uh figuring out the allocation responsibility between commercial tenants and commercial owners. I don't think it's easily solved. And I think that's one reason that this building6510 reporting statute did not become part of the Climate Act because we couldn't quite figure out roles and responsibilities. And so I look forward to our addressing the issue again. The6522 Senate did pass it but it didn't become part of the conference committee report but there were some legitimate issues here of accountability. But thank you Ben very much. Are there additional questions of Mr Hellerstein.
SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
Thank you. So yeah, thank you. And I'll just say, I think it's it's a really interesting issue that you've raised and you know, we're happy to work with your office and others to dig into the details on this and and bring6544 in outside expertise wherever that's helpful. That would thank you. I much appreciate that offer. Can we hear from Amy Boyd of the Acadia Centre? I know she wants to testify on an act relative to building energy and decarbonization. Absolutely.
[AMY BOYD:] Hello, thank you for having me. Um My name's Amy Boyd and I am director of policy at the Acadia center. I also hold the environmental seat on the Energy efficiency advisory council. And as we've already been talking about, well, I I would like to speak about S 2202 3350 and a little bit on S 2132 if I may. Um there are additional bills that arcadia center supports some with changes that are more detailed in my written testimony. But I sent in this morning6597 Um, the Commonwealth recently updated its already bold greenhouse gas emission targets, setting a net zero standard for 2050 and 50% economy wide greenhouse gas reductions by 2030. Thanks to the vision and leadership shown by this body and your specifically Mr chair with the next gen climate road map bill. This is the first three year efficiency plan that gets to consider greenhouse gas reductions as a priority and even more must deliver on a specific greenhouse gas reduction target. And I am pleased to report that putting a greenhouse gas reduction target in place is already help them push the program administrators to increase land electrification of fossil fueled Holmes to heat pumps and the residential and income eligible sectors. I almost fivefold guessing the most recent graph6651 that they've showed us because they haven't actually shared real data yet for the latest draft of the 22 to 24 plan.
Energy efficiency represents our commonwealth. Cleanest and cheapest fuel With over 14% of New England's electricity mix coming from energy efficiency buildings in Massachusetts still consume 50% of the annual energy used in the Commonwealth. An account for nearly a third of the emissions, 85% of the residential buildings that are expected to6682 be here in 2050 are already built. So we have to deal with retrofits, can't just fix it through the building code. So it's clear that decarbonization, commercial and residential building stock will play a crucial role in reducing overall emissions in Massachusetts. The commonwealth has made great progress in those areas over6701 recent years, but it's only scraped the surface of what's possible.
So, um Arcadia Center supports H 3350 and S 2202 an act relative to building energy in decarbonization as it is an ambitious piece of legislation that would help propel our commonwealth building sector forward implements a swath of changes to the board of6726 building regulations and standards, including better dividing net zero building and aligning the board with the new mandate of the Department of Public utilities to have to look at greenhouse gas and equity. The legislation also establishes a building energy and emissions retrofit funding program that the Department of Energy Resources. SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
Oh, timer. Okay, thank you. There's more in my written testimony, AMY. Thank you very much. Are there questions of Miss Boy. Mhm.
We want to thank a Acadia Center very much for its continuing expertise in this6766 issue AMy and we look forward to consulting with you all as the session goes on. Absolutely happy to thank you. I think city councillor, uh Nolan is now able to join us and if that's the case we would like to hear from6782 her, she's testifying on the uh bills that we6786 have immediately before the committee. So it seems appropriate. Councillor nolman, thank you. Thank you. You hear me now? You're echoing. But yes, we can. Can you hear me?
Vice is on perhaps
is this a device alone enough? Yes, great. I will hang up all that all that okay And you can still hear me beautifully.
[PATRICIA NOLAN:] Thank you so much and I very very much appreciate you taking me out of turn because there's a couple different bills and I recognize that you have a heavy agenda before you. You've already heard testimony on the feasibility and the need from amazing players from senator Rausch Robinson Rocky Mountain Institute. My heroes. So I will speak to you from my perspective as a city councillor in Cambridge, home to many things that have already been mentioned. The finch building beaudo not to be confused with Burdeau, you know, Cambridge has committed to climate action and we've set ambitious goals for reducing emissions at the local level. Most of our emissions in the city do come from buildings much higher percentage than the state. So to achieve our goals, we do need to make our buildings more efficient, replace fossil fuel heating and generate all electricity from renewable energy. We know those both have to happen or we are nowhere near where we need to be setting energy performance standards for6863 large buildings will help all of us. We need help from the state. We need more tools in our tool kit.
We cannot do this alone without all of you. In Cambridge. We are developing energy performance standards for our Butoh for large buildings and municipal level. We expect to bring an ordinance before city council before the end of the year. Establishing a similar policy at the state level would help ensure greater consistency in building standards. It would also serve as a backstop for any community that doesn't have the capacity to develop and administer it's own energy reporting system. Now, I want to say Cambridge is a is a climate leader and yet you should all know, we have failed completely to6900 meet our own emissions reduction goals eight years ago. Many of you may have known a much heralded Cambridge compact for sustainable future was launched. M. I. T. Harvard, the city Kendall Square luminary companies and they focused on labs appropriately enough because labs have a much higher energy density that use than others. I was thrilled to see the program launched and yet it has been utterly ineffective at moving the needle for labs.
Our cities, greenhouse gas emissions are flat over the last 12 years. It is not getting us where we need to go. We need the state to have more mandates our own net zero action plan review concluded very recently that we have to increase our own as a city emissions reduction effectiveness 20 fold over the next five years. If Cambridge is struggling as you know, it is no surprise we are financially strong, we have more than $100 million dollars in free cash. We have brain trust resources across the city, we are struggling to have impact, imagine what other municipalities are facing. So as much as I support many of these bills, the H 3336, the better Building Act, I encourage you all to realize it's the minimum we need to do the climate roadmap, which you all passed is necessary, not just6971 as a nice to have, but it requires reductions. Can I just have another 30 seconds for two more senses? Thank you.
Um, We cannot achieve our goals of the 50% below 1990 levels by 2030 through just zero emissions. New buildings, never mind net6987 zero or new EVs. Only the level of dramatic transformation needed for the Commonwealth is only now being understood by the general public. We need this act as mentioned, not just public health, but economics. And if I may please update the pace program, update the commercial properties established. One for residential carats have not worked in Cambridge. We recognize that we need carrots and sticks of every possible flavor in size. I thank you so much. I encourage you to do what we can. I stand ready to help you from my experience as a city councillor and as someone who's been deeply concerned about this and worked on it for many decades, thank you so much for indulging me for that extra 30 seconds or minutes.
[BARRETT:] Councilor, Thank you.7027 Are there questions of councilor Nolan? I7031 have one councillor. Could, could you identify for the committee The top two reasons in your opinion Why Cambridge has stagnated but not on emissions rather than reduced emissions? What are the top two points of failure?
[NOLAN:] That is such an amazing question. We just formed a climate Crisis working group which I'm sharing with the mayor exactly. To do that. That we have all the plans. We need to identify the barriers and I think it's it's partly the resistance of people to actually in put in mandates we have tried incentives and they have not worked. So we need more requirements in our in our ordinances, just like the state needs that. I think the other element is that we have not done a thorough enough analysis of Setting the goals7076 and then monitoring it over time. It's the accountability that's lacking. So that if we set a goal for 10 years where I mean, think about it, you've all set a goal 1990 from 1990. A 50% reduction. That means every five years, you have to make some progress if you are not checking that every year you are not going to get there because it is a dramatic decrease. So I think that the combination of we need more mandates and the lack of an accountability system frankly,7104 part of me thinks, why are we even measuring the performance standards are fine. Maybe we should just be measuring how many buildings are going to all electric. Like don't even spend that time and energy measuring the emissions. Just say, Alright, as the globe said, if we need 100,000 buildings to be all electric, they don't even have them spend the energy measuring their emissions. Have us spend the energy counting how many buildings are electric Cambridge. Can't even tell me how many all electric buildings are in Cambridge right now And yet we need every single one of them. As I look outside um in my home office, every single house I see within 20 years has to be all electric. Does that answer your question?
[BARRETT:] Thank you counselor. No, I appreciate. As you may know, the climate act actually does require for the very first time sub limits to be set every five years rather than every 10 and specifically on residential buildings, et cetera. So we are, these are, these are effectively uh limits that we must find a way to meet.7161 So thank you for underlining the importance of are doing exactly that.
[NOLAN:]7167 Yeah. And and I would, I think some of times our own city were somewhat more conservative about our economics. We need, we need to use our resources just like we all saw with Covid, we turned around we transform things in six months. We can do the same if we actually truly treat climate as an emergency. Which which we haven't really thank you. I indulge, I've taken time. Thank you so much for all of your leadership.
SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
Thank you, counselor. Much appreciated. Can we hear from K Salem from the Green Energy consumers alliance?
Yeah.
Hi, can you hear me? We can.
[KAI SALEM:] Wonderful. Thank you to chairs Barrett and Roy the committee and my colleagues who have worked to support many of the important pieces of legislation on the table today. Green energy consumers alliance supports S 2202 and H 3350 act relative building energy and decarbonization. And I'll also speak very briefly in support of home energy labelling, H- 3344 and S- 2196. Green Energy consumers alliance is a nonprofit based in massachusetts and Rhode island. We work to speed the transition to a low carbon future. We have been involved with energy efficiency and building emissions for many years among other projects. Running multiple heat pump buying programs and our consumer programs ground our energy policy advocacy in the lived experience of massachusetts. Residents, we support these bills because the road map bill made important strides forward on climate action, setting sub sectoral greenhouse gas emissions limits uh, and setting massive greenhouse gas targets.
However, there were a number of gaps in which the road map bill and existing policy processes like mass save or the recently announced Clean Heat Commission will not be enough to uh they don't have the policy solutions that we need to achieve our goals and act relative to building energy and decarbonization addresses as many of these gaps and tries to fill in those gaps with policy solutions that will get us to those goals. I want to call out a couple of these provisions in particular. Uh for example, this legislation focuses on these proven policies like a net zero energy code and building performance standards. We really like that. It adds a green plus communities category to ensure that communities are incentivized to opt up to the more climate friendly codes. Uh in addition to being supported in doing so. There were questions earlier from the chair about the end of the7330 opt in code in 2028, although often is a great way to get a head start on our transition to7336 a net zero energy code Massachusetts. The whole needs to be on net zero by the end of the decade. This was something that was mentioned in the interim7346 CECP draft. There was this great craft in the interim CECP dressed draft that talked demonstrated how much emissions could avoided. We adopt a net zero code sooner. Uh we really like that earlier adoption not closing plans that do not achieve all cost effective savings and perhaps more importantly that are not online with road map chair barrett. We support the idea of scheduling and oversight hearing on mass Dave because this is a crucial point in the history of these energy efficiency programs. We're also intrigued by S 2132 to which would consider ways that we can make sure that mass is sized commensurate with the road map bill. One suggestion we have for this bill.7393 You can read a my written testimony and thank you for your time.
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Thank you very much
. KR there. By the way, am I pronouncing your name correctly? Is acai I apologize.
It's chi thanks so much. Are there questions of MS Salem.
[BARRETT:] I want to reiterate a7417 Kai a note that I recorded when we talked to a building expert as a staff now earlier this year, he7426 knew a lot about mass save and he informed us that Mass Save Does in fact provide an energy audit to only three percent of massachusetts houses each year Of these, 30 Of the 3% actually make the recommended improvements. See 30% of 3% is just below 1%. And then These improvements record typically reductions in energy use that are rather modest. 10-30 In the 1% of buildings that implement the changes seems to me there is something fundamentally a skew that tinkering with mass save can't really remedy. We're talking about a massive failing of scale, it's not mass saves fault in a sense. Uh, the scaling up that would seem to be required to meet Residential building and commercial industrial building Emission sub limits for 2025 and 2030 would seem to be vast beyond what the legislature is imagined, the executive branch has imagined, and certainly utilities have imagined, how are we going to uh, narrow the disconnect between the modest scale of mass save 3% of buildings audited7518 every year, which only 30% of the 3% make recommended improvements and the scale at which we apparently need to work as a commonwealth. SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
That's a question for you Kai you're on mute at the moment.
[SALEM:] Well, we agree that that is the key question and I will say green energy consumers alliance is um, we believe that there have to be other sources of funding besides the electric and gas ratepayer bills, uh, to do some of this work. So we're really excited about the work of the Clean Heat Commission, but we also do think there could be improvements to mass save. Um, and, and in the meantime, I think what is really important about both and that's relative to build and the home Energy bill is that we're looking at other ways to cut emissions from building, not reliant on the incentive based program. So, these are ways through building7586 performance standards and building energy codes that we are. Um, Making sure that everyone, not just the 3% of people who get audits are anyone who owns a building or anyone who is building a new building is getting involved in reducing emissions as much as possible. And then with home energy labelling, the point of sale for a home is a really key point of investment in homes and home energy labelling and making sure that those labels are available at the point of sale. That is another intervention where we can go beyond that. 3% of people who get home energy audit and start doing emissions reductions on a broader scale.
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Thank you, interesting answer. Much appreciated. Are there additional questions of MS Salem hearing? None. We want to thank you and we will move on and hear from the Mariama? White Hammond, the city of boston, Chief of environment Energy and open space. Uh Miss White Hammond, reverend Mike Hammond, are you with us? SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
Um, she's unavailable right now, but she will be submitting written testimony. All right, we thank reverend Dwight Hammond for that and we will move on to hear more about s 22 32 age 33 66 act relative to better buildings, john Carlson of series I believe is with us And it we would like to invite john to come forward to testify.
[JOHN CARLSON:] [SB2132] [HB3366] Good morning. Thank you. Chairman, Chairman and Chairman Roy and members of the committee appreciate the opportunity to testify this morning. Uh, my name is john Carlson. I'm speaking on behalf of series, which is a nonprofit sustainability advocacy organization that works7693 with some of the country's largest companies and investors to build a more sustainable economy. We are based here in the commonwealth and many of our members have significant operations facilities in massachusetts. I'm here in support of the Better Buildings Act. Thanks to the work of the lawmakers on this7711 committee and the rest of the general court massachusetts has a binding mandate to achieve net zero emissions across our entire economy. By 2050 27% of our total emissions are coming from on site combustion of fossil fuels and our buildings right now, we're not going to achieve that zero across the economy without tackling emissions from these two million buildings.
I'm not going to reiterate all of the points made very ably by my colleagues and partners. Another necessity of this work in confronting climate change, but I do want to say that the statewide energy disclosure requirements within this act are necessary to ensure the performance standards, building stretch codes, massive reforms and all the other policy mechanisms under consideration will have their intended effect. They want to take chair. Barrett point that the responsibility between owners and tenants of buildings could be further developed and would be more than happy to assist with those conversations. I will say that if clearing consistent statewide mandate is put in place, we do expect the new leases could assign responsibility between the owners and tenants and existing leases could potentially be adapted to account for these new requirements. One other point that I do want to make is that the oil and gas heating systems in our existing buildings are creating harmful pollution that linked to asthma, heart attacks, stroke other health problems.
It's being released directly into the places where we live and work. Just earlier this month, the Harvard chan School of Public Health released a new study demonstrating that poor indoor air quality affects health and predictive productivity significantly greater than we previously understood. And when I submit my written testimony includes some links to that study. I I highly encourage the committee to review it, curbing emissions in our state's commercial7824 buildings is critical to meeting our climate goals and building the net zero emissions economy. The series members companies are already taking a lot of steps to invest in new technologies that are going to reduce emissions at their facilities and transition away from fossil fuels. But we need policies that build on the ambition of the net generation roadmap to spur that kind of innovation and I think the Better Buildings Act is one such policy series urges the committee to report favorably7852 on the bill. Thank you for your time.
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Thank you very much, john are there7857 questions of Mr Carlson
hearing. None. We will, we will again thank series and wish it well and it's very important to work and we would like to hear from deidre cummings now from mass Perks
7874 [DEIRDRE CUMMINGS:] um Great thank you. Um Chairman Barrett um and uh Chairman Roy, my name is Deirdre Comings, I'm the legislative director for Mass. PIRg, Mass Berg is a 45 year old nonpartisan and nonprofit consumer advocacy organization and we have a long history of supporting energy conservation and appliance efficiency and working for a cleaner, healthier environment. We're fully supportive of the Better Buildings Act um filed by Representative Robinson and Senator Roush, which will require the owners of large buildings, offices, apartment buildings, labs, universities and hospital campuses to report their energy used to the state and then take steps to make energy wasting buildings more efficient. Um I do not want to take up the time and repeat my colleagues um testimony and their expertise on this issue far greater than mine. I do want to say that the better buildings acts, we think is a win win for the commonwealth.
As first, it'll help save tenants, both residents and businesses money and their utility bills. I think it was Senator Roush who talked earlier about everybody has been in the building, including some in the state house quite frankly that where you have to open the window in7950 the middle of winter in order to regulate the temperature while the heat um then continues to blast even higher. Um and then second we think the bill um clearly will protect our health in the environment by tackling climate change. And so for those reasons in the testimony given previously on this issue, we wholeheartedly support the passage of the better Buildings Act.
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Uh thank you very much, Miss Cummings, is there are there questions of mass pIRg
hearing? None. We want to thank you very much for your participation today and move on to fred bunger from the Wellesley Climate Action Committee if fred is with us.
Yes, yes, hang on, I'll get the camera on. Thank you.
[FRED BUNGER:] I'm a member of the Wellesley Climate Action Committee and we have a buildings8011 working group and we've been vitally interested in what we can do to reduce emissions in town, particularly in buildings. We're always adopted greenhouse gas emission reduction goals consistent with the I. PCC federal and massachusetts state goals to achieve the town goals. We depend upon the state to adopt laws and support regulations that encourage energy conservation as a means of reducing emissions.
All of the laws that have been discussed today are aimed in the direction we support In Wellesley, 56% of greenhouse-gas emissions are from buildings, The nearly six million square feet of single family residences, condominiums and apartments have an average energy use intensity of about 70,000 be to use per square foot per year As compared to occur. And building code of around 30 the 10 plus million square feet of commercial institutional and municipal buildings emissions have an energy use intensity of over 100 1000 BTUs per square foot per year versus current building code of about 40 two medium mission goals. We have a long way to go. So a range of solutions are needed to help the largely older building stock in Wellesley reduced energy consumption and emissions.
Many of the proposed bills are necessary, they are necessary to meet the town emissions goals. Net zero building codes will be helpful in the future, but Wellesley new building construction is less than 1% per year, Building turnover in Wellesley is around 3% per year. So, the the House bill 3334 and I've forgotten the Senate built our are aimed in that direction, it would be very helpful and we're particularly interested in an act relative to better buildings H 3366 and 2232 we just kicked off a voluntary reporting program. Uh Lynn Wellesley, we had 30 people involved. So again, thank you very much for holding this public hearing and giving me a chance to speak on behalf of the town of Wellesley, Thank you.
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Thank you Mr Banger, Are there questions of Mr bunker?
If not sir? We want to thank you very much for troubling to testify before us today. Good to hear from municipal8171 governments, municipalities
and following in that vein, I would the committee would not next like to hear from Gillian Wilson martin, who's the sustainability director for the town of Pneumatic Miss martin, are you with us? Yes, good morning, can you hear me? We can.
[JILLIAN WILSON MARTIN:] Excellent, thank you for having me and I was pleased to see my colleague in Wellesley uh Mr bunker, um I am Gillian Wilson martin and I'm the town of Natives director of sustainability and I appreciate having the opportunity to speak to8208 you in support of the Better Buildings act. I speak today is both an advocate for the priorities identified in Natives net zero action plan, which this bill would directly advance and also as an employee who has had the responsibility of fulfilling the same type of energy use disclosures that are required by this act And I do that for more than 800,000 square feet of commercial space and I have done so for approximately seven years. In addition, the majority of our emissions come from buildings and nearly 50% of those building emissions come from our existing commercial buildings as part of our action plan. Similar to what you heard from Mr Sanders in Lexington is working on a disclosure requirement that's nearly identical to the Better buildings Act. We are seeking to require large commercial building owners to first report on their annual energy usage and also to complete projects that reduce their greenhouse gas emissions every five years. We're not alone in supporting this approach. In addition to Lexington and Wellesley, I know that colleagues in Ashland Westboro in Arlington have similar priorities and I'm sure there are others out there. And I personally believe that it will be better for businesses if we create consistent requirements and reporting practices across our state, it will also be easier for them to access stated we do this from a state level because we'll be able to have greater partnerships with our public utilities
in regards to my role as an energy manager. I want to tell you how easy and beneficial it is. Um, I think it's a misperception that tracking energy use would be a burden to property owners and the reality is that reporting on energy use is really a benefit. The Green Communities program requires essentially the same practice by municipalities and we report on our energy use. And actually in the same way that this bill would require large commercial businesses Tracking our energy use has led native to identify opportunities for energy efficiency and8329 renewable energy and that's driven as the complete projects that are saving us more than $500,000 a year. And many of these projects are not supported by grants for projects that we identify because we see that our buildings are using more energy than they should. We investigate that. And that leads to opportunities that we pursue. So with these benefits in mind, I ask you to vote to act on behalf of property owners and municipalities and our climate and vote in support of the better buildings act. Thank you.
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Thank you very much Miss. Will are there questions?
[BARRETT:] I do have one. Please permit me, let me clarify what is the town is this? Do you work for the town government in some capacity and exactly what current initiative exists today as opposed to things that you're attempting to get off the ground.
[WILSON:] Sure, yes I do. I am an employee of the town of Native and I manage are green communities designation here in Native which is as you are familiar with the D. O.8395 Er program and existing today. We track our energies for all municipal buildings which represent most of the large buildings and Native. There is actually very few buildings I think in any given community that um but You would create be creating this reporting requirement for I did some analysis, Natick and it's um less than 200 buildings and native. However, those buildings are responsible for a very large amount of uh emissions in our community. In terms of what we're doing now we're reporting8428 as a municipality and we have a working group with other communities that are interested in pursuing a regional approach to um this energy use disclosure requirement. We have not adopted one yet but we are working on it and it's listed8442 as a priority action and our Net zero plan which is endorsed by all major boards and committees and Natick
[BARRETT:] walk us through briefly uh just as a representative property, it's not representative in terms of commercial industrial activity. I appreciate that. It doesn't house life sciences companies are technology companies for example, but walk us through. How do you imagine this would play out with respect to8468 the natick mall?
[WILSON:] Sure. Well with the natick mall there is a mix of owners who operate their space in the mall.
[BARRETT:] Um You know there are lots of if you want to be legal about it, aren't there are lots of long term commercial renters, tenants.
[WILSON:] There are Yes, I can't speak to the specifics of the natick mall because I'm not involved in there lease agreements. Um but there are a lot of long term commercial tenants there and then there are some sections of them all that do own and operate their property.
[BARRETT:] So when you use the term owners, you actually in your head you may actually thinking of Long term commercial tenants such as anchor stores Sitting in a mall that's owned by a 3rd party.
[WILSON:] Well in natick of some of our anchor8520 stores actually own their section of the mall,
[BARRETT:] but some8527 don't.
[WILSON:] I agree.
[BARRETT:] Do you have a sense At the8536 proportion8536 uh commercial retail property occupied by long term tendencies as opposed to used by owners.
[WILSON:] My suspicion is that it is for long term tenants than it is owners
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Well, thank you very much, Miss martin, we uh we appreciate your taking part in today's hearing. Thank you. Yeah, we8561 would8561 now like to hear if we might from paul dale of the massachusetts sierra club. Hello paul,
yes, you're muted at the moment. Can you hear me? We can hear you. Um, I am, I have echoing. Yes. Um perhaps you could call on another speaker and call me back. Let me fix my echo problem here. We won't be able to call you back immediately, but we'll see. We'll we'll move on. Let me see if I can proceed, then you.
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Why don't we remove? Why don't we move on at the moment to mr charlie Herrick. I see charlie is with us of the National Consumer Law Center charlie. I think you want to buy on behalf of a number of bills that uh with respect to the so called pace program.
[CHARLIE HARAK:] Thank you very much. Mr Chairman and chairman Roy and I'm pleased to be testifying before my representative kate, Lipper-Garabedian My name is charlie Harrack. I'm a staff attorney at the National Consumer Law Center and we are testifying in opposition to to paste bills near identical H 3275 and S 2218. The National Consumer Law Center is a nonprofit advocacy organization that since 1969 has used its expertise in consumer law and energy policy to work for consumer justice and economic security for low-income households. Um we oppose8645 these two bills because they place consumers at great risk due to the lack of any consumer protections in these bills and because existing award winning massachusetts programs already provide adequate tools for homeowners to finance energy efficiency. These two bills authorized the Department of Energy Resources to develop and implement regulations to establish residential sustainable energy program basically modelled on, I'm assuming Pace programs in other states
of greatest concern to us is that the bill contains no consumer protections even while authorizing a financing program that will burden consumers with debt that includes a lean being placed on the consumer's home. And the potential for foreclosure California, which has the oldest and largest residential Pace program, included extensive consumer protections when it first adopted Pace and actually added further protections in response to deceptive sales practices that harm consumers, John Oliver's program this week tonight detailed a broad range of problems families have faced who have access pace funding and that's in their June 21, 2021 episode, I included a link in our written testimony
Um renovate, notably renovate one of the first companies to offer8727 pace loans and an early lead proponent of spreading paste model to other states filed for bankruptcy. In December 2020. Renovate recently entered a settlement agreement with regulators to have its license revoked based on allegations and substantiation of allegations of fraud given the many complaints that have been lodged against Pace programs by consumers Congress mandated that the consumer financial protection burial adopt regulations addressing the ability to repay that is Cannavaro really repay that pace loan that is being offered. Uh the massachusetts pace bills are a solution that makes little sense, particularly in massachusetts as there is no problem obtaining financing for energy efficiency measures at a zero interest rate and without having a lean placed on the home.
The heat loan program offered by massive, provides $100 million in interest free loans annually and makes it one of the largest residential lending programs in America. Have 30 seconds Moore Mr Chairman of moments at the end. Sure, thank you very much. Moreover, the loans are offered by local banks, not out of state for profit companies motivated as much8800 by generating profits for global investors as by concern about climate change. So in conclusion, N. C. L. C on behalf of our clients strongly opposes these bills because they contain no protections for consumers because Pace loans have unquestionably harmed borrowers elsewhere and because massachusetts has a more than adequate existing energy financing program, that is the heat loan program and we have submitted a written testimony with more detail in citations. Thank you very much.8828 Mr. Chairman.
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Thank you very much. Are there questions of Mr Harris?
[BARRETT:] I have one Mr do you have a perspective that you consider to be as informed with respect to the operation of the current Pace program8845 and its impact on small businesses.
[HARAK:] You know, when our experience commercial borrowers are used to borrowing money for other purposes and are a little more sophisticated in the transactions. Um we have seen almost no problems of which were aware in commercial loan programs around the country, most of the problems um that have arisen and we are really familiar with the California problems are the contractors haven't been closely enough regulated. So in the heat loan program you have utility that's making no money off the contracting or the financing, it's in their interest to actually enforce good rules because it only blows8884 up in their face if there are bad actors in California pace loans are securitized sold on the global market and so there is an incentive to go as big as possible as quickly as possible.8897 And there's been a lot of targeting of communities of color, limited english speakers and low income people. And personally, I think that's what took renovate down is that they went too quickly to scale and didn't control their contractors. Um, I have great respect for how the heat loan program has rolled out in massachusetts and the way the community banks operate that program. I think that provides the money we need and the safety we need for consumers. And I appreciate that question.
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Thank you sir. Additional questions8927 of Mr. Herek hearing. None will well thank you
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