2022-09-14 00:00:00 - Joint Committee on Transportation

SEN CRIGHTON - A lot has happened since our last meeting. Federal Trains Administration issued its final report on August 31st. The MBTA also announced an unprecedented one month long shutdown. I wanted to complete five years of work of critical maintenance repair work but even while the FTE was24 concluding its investigation during the last several weeks, not seeing any reduction in incidents at the T since the last oversight hearing, there has been a serious burn injury to a contractor at a35 diversion worksite on 519th, a red line train roll away from the Braintree station on electrical wire on the green line tracks in the park Street station just this past weekend causing panic, fusion marks, sounds of explosions coming off the tracks.

Of course, none of us60 can forget that dramatic image of the orange Line train flames forcing passengers to evacuate over the Mystic River by 21st, pretty short days after. Our first accounts from passengers during these incidents, the MBTA urgency whether from crew members on board or ambassadors at the station. Real time communication to passengers has been such an issue during a power failure on an outbound commuter rail train on the night of August 1st, dozens passengers chose to jump off the train, top offense, date of remaining on board the train, no conditioning no information about how long the delay will be. This contributes to the panic, confusion, chaos, further erosion of the public's trust of their transportation system. Many riders are now seeking transportation alternative, but they no longer feel their commute on the T will get them safely.125 Today, we are hoping to discuss the findings of the FDA report in more detail.

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REP STRAUS - As my Co Chair has indicated, this is the second in a series of hearings. I want to briefly describe that the overview that the committee brings to the process of the team. Clearly we have scheduled today's hearing with the completion of the FTA safety report in mind, however, by its own description, the FTA report was limited even within its own federal statutes. Not review bus issues and then certainly rail. Our efforts are largely five in terms of all of the mode of transportation is responsible for. So there are things that we look to examine thus that are broader than just the FTA. As my co chair has noted and this was made earlier, although we second time requested assistance from the FTA for the second time, they declined, they declined in July because they said they were in middle of the work project looking at the T, that was understandable.

They declined two days ago citing regulations about this being a legal procedure and that on advice of counsel they would not be with us. We released publicly their emails to the member of the committee. Certainly in July they had that important to focus on. I don't understand. We do intend to have further hearings. I'm hoping that those who may have influence in the FTA in Washington may be able to cause them to rethink and gives them the discretion here. They are not forced to fight from us, they chose not to help us. I think that's unfair to the public. It's ultimate fisher is a safe public transit system. The FTA has done great work activity that they conducted with and to make themselves available to questions from reporters press conference but not US are questions I guess are out of bounds out of balance.

I said512 they have the discretion to help us. It helped us. I just say administration and the next administration we're the ones will be responsible to respond and deal with the conclusions and recommendations in the report. I say one member of the committee, I'm just looking for a little for him. So I for one not giving up hope, maybe somebody from the FTA might like to help explain their546 report about 90 pages with the appropriate questions that we are just dying to just a on the. Back to the topic562 of safety itself, I found as we've entered into570 this good report. I have to say574 if you took off the cover page, didn't know which page which report was which knowing that there were examinations that were done potentially three years apart. I really wouldn't know which one came first tracks.

So close, same issues, same problems, same focus on this important question of safety issues at the T. So at different points in our first hearing on July 19th, I had suggested that we focus here on the mission of the T. What is the T to perform? Keep that distinct in our minds from the T as an organization, 15 statute that Governor proposed and635 we worked very hard the House and Senate, the creation of the oversight board and we have the sectors and as a mission statement, you can't do any better, which is so the T is to provide safe, reliable and sustainable transit system. The statutes aren't designed to enshrine the T is an organization in perpetuity, statutes are designed to create a safer, reliable sustainable transit system, which is one part of the overall transportation system.

So the fact that the two reports seem to identify the same big issue of competing capital, competing operation demands on what is a much smaller staff, unfortunately, and no one happy about that, but a much smaller staff doing these safety functions suggests to me and I hope to the public and ultimately colleagues and the administration now and the next administration that if we keep doing the same thing, we're going to keep getting the same results. So we have to think dramatically different about what are the organizational structures that allow727 us to have safe, reliable and sustainable transit system. That is the touchstone I hope and today's further hearing I think gets us there.

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MATTHEW NELSON - DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC UTILITIES - Good morning, Chair Crighton and Chair Straus, thank you to both of you and the distinguished members of the committee and the opportunity to testify today about the Department of Public utilities, oversight of the773 safety management practices at the MBTA. The DPU takes very seriously its responsibility to ensure the safety of the riders of the MBTA. Transit system. We786 have been working closely with FTA as apparent from the report and the791 MBTA to implement FTA's recommendations and794 ensure riders get that safe and reliable transportation system that the Chair just referred to and that the riders deserve. DPU agrees that the actions directed by FTA are necessary for enhancing public transportation system safety and the department is working diligently to implement809 those actions.

As a result of the FTA's inspections that have been going on, DPU has already expanded its field work and is working to increase its resources to conduct even more fieldwork and additional auditing825 of the MBTA. The DPU is hiring additional transportation safety experts. People with skills like this on rail are hard to find, but the DPU is committed to continually working to build expertise and to reinforce the857 already knowledgeable and dedicated civil servants we have who work in the transportation and oversight division. To give you a866 little background about the DPU, FTA established the state safety oversight program and that is to oversee873 the safety of rail transit systems across the entire United States.

Through this SSO878 program, the FTA provides federal funds to the states883 to be used for the oversight of safety of the rail transit system and each state887 designates an agency to carry out this federal program. In Massachusetts, the DPU is the designated safety oversight agency and we're certified by FTA in the same way and FTA has done the same certification for other programs across the country. DPU and our predecessors agencies have been overseeing the safety of equipment and912 operations of the MBTA over 50 years. DPU at its core is a consumer protection agency, we protect people from higher rates or actions and overseeing gas,922 electric, water utilities and even growing companies, we protect people through our oversight of pipeline safety.

We protect people through929 the coordinated response to emergencies, climate change and protect people taking Uber and Lyft by ensuring the TNC drivers are qualified to operate safe vehicles. Therefore, it follows, the department also deeply cares about making sure the public is receiving safe and reliable service from the MBTA since that's core to the importance of the agency and protecting consumers is consistent with our agency wide charge. In 2018, FTA began its journey of moving to a proactive preventative program that looks at hazards and risks to identify those problems before they become accidents. In the past, the department's approach was focused more on root cause analysis, a way to look at an accident after it occurred and ensure that the MBTA was taking the necessary steps to properly identify what caused the incident and then once we have identified that, making sure the same type of incident won't happen again.

The new methodology FTA is employee is still looks at root cause but seeks to implement a process to avoid incidents from ever occurring, through vigilance and pro activity on the part of both MBTA and the DPU. However, to implement the strategy, the FTA has correctly identified the1011 department needs additional resources and that's why our current plan to increase staffing even more than the current levels will ensure that our program improve safety on the MBTA lines and we find that is necessary. The recommendation the FTA report supports that the department ongoing efforts to promote a safe operation of the MBTA system built upon the safety and oversight initiatives already1036 underway and this includes safety staffing, the creation of a new director of rail transit safety position and additional fieldwork, additional audits to provide further oversight and collaboration and to ensure MBTA corrective action plans are both sufficient and properly executed.

The department's dedicated to our efforts in these areas and we look forward to ongoing collaboration with the FTA, the MBTA, and this committee because we need to ensure that riders receive safe and reliable transportation services. Thank you for the opportunity to1069 testify today and I'm happy to answer any questions you may have.

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CRIGHTON - So as you discuss, you are the FTA's oversight authority of the MBTA in terms of safety. Early meetings of the fiscal management control board, safety was raised as an issue they conducted the 2019 report that we've referenced earlier, safety again, obviously raised through a series of incidents and then the FTA coming in. Just a pattern of issues there. You are the agency, it oversees safety and throughout the course of all these events, whether it be reports for accidents at the T, you never rang the alarm, you never brought it1135 to the attention of the FTA, to the public, to our committee certainly that these serious issues were occurring and what you're doing to ensure that they worked on. So we have a series of events that I outlined in my opening remarks really a five alarm fire here yet, you never rang the alarm. I just want to know why are we just many folks are just learning that you are in fact the safety, I've heard that from many of my colleagues, I need to know why?

NELSON - Yes, sure, I think it's a fair question. The thing I'll say is you know, this is my first time appearing before this committee and obviously it's appropriate given all of the incidents that have occurred on the MBTA and those incidents have grown since then, the red line derailment when I was on board in 2019. I think that the DPU just to make sure we're clear about this, MBTA is still the primary and first line of defense on all safety activities. We're an auditing department, we don't have hundreds of employees, our role is to ensure that MBTA and MBTA safety is doing their job and complying with1222 their safety plan. So I think when you're saying we1228 didn't ring the alarm bells, we've been in coordination with FTA and we've been working with FTA, we've met all the deadlines and reported all the information, we've been on site of every major accident analyzing what happened and what has gone wrong with those incidents and our fundamental goal is to try to ensure that MBTA is taking the right steps to make those improvements.

We aren't releasing press releases, that's not what our nature is, I mean, I think that safety is a bipartisan issue and we take our role very seriously but our primary people that we report to has been making sure MBTA is aware of what we've identified as problems and also making sure that FTA is aware of what is happening on the system. Obviously, through the reports, FTA has acknowledged a deficiency and I think that that is something that we acknowledge as well. We1285 think by adding additional staffing, this will start to address those issues and it will also start to hold MBTA more accountable for things that they're doing wrong and try to ensure that they are doing more things correctly in the future.

CRIGHTON - I certainly imagine we're going to talk a lot about staffing your organization and also the T generally here in the hearing, so I'm going to pause on that, but it seems that you're telling me that you have, in fact, I've been doing the work and you believe to a satisfactory degree all along, just not being in a public way about it, that this is kind of behind the scenes, is that accurate?

NELSON - We're a quasi judicial agency, right? And I think that our fundamental1332 goal is to identify the problems and make sure that the people in charge of those problems are addressing. So, you know, we've got a long history of overseeing rail and right now is the first time we're really seeing the MBTA have the problems, the degree they're having in the last couple of years and I think that's why you've seen FTA take the actions they have taken and why DPU is amping up on actions we are taking to the MBTA as Well.

CRIGHTON - So throughout all these incidents going back to1377 2018, you believe that your organization adequately efficiently in a timely manner had notified and provided direct oversight to the MBTA?

NELSON - Yes, we've been on site of every major accident that have occurred and we've notified FTA about our findings. We have a process for doing that and we have met all those deadlines but I would say I want to make sure you understand, I think we have done what we are required to do but I think facing the challenges of what has been happening on the MBTA, we need to do more. I want to separate that, I'm not trying to say that everything is fine, that is not the message I'm delivering. I'm trying to say we've met our requirements but given the circumstances more needs to be done.

CRIGHTON - Thank you. Then you mentioned you met your requirement a number of times. Is it true though that the FTA's 2019 audit included 16 findings in their as of April I believe seven of those 16 were still open, could you just confirm whether those are still open or whether or not you have resolved those if in fact you are meeting all the requirements?

NELSON - Yes. So just on the 2019 audit, the department received it in December of 2020. So the audit was conducted in 2019, the report was given to the department in December 2020. There were 16 findings as you indicated, we provided documentation on all those findings. I will say that in between all the1475 documentation we provided and the FTA acceptance of not all of them, but some of those, there were additional incidents on the T, there was a green line collision, I believe there was the red line derailment at the JFK station and we received a letter from FTA subsequent to the audit telling us that we need to have a more proactive approach to ensuring that we are reducing the number of derailments and collisions.

And because of that, they held some of those findings open. Those findings are all centered around what you will see in the SMI around the DPU, right? Hazard identification, closing of caps, being more proactive with the MBTA, using our enforcement activity. So they are challenging us to do more in our oversight role and I think that is consistent with the findings of the SMI.

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STRAUS - I guess I would start off just first question, is there anything in the FTA report that touches DPU that either in a finding or required action you dispute or question?

NELSON - I'll be a little bit careful because we haven't submitted our final response.

STRAUS - My recommendation would be a lot of careful.

NELSON - I want to be open and honest around our assessment. The answer is I think that the FTA has correctly identified issues, right? They've identified we need additional resources, I concur with that. We have a plan in place to deal with that. They have a finding around independence and I think that we have to make sure that we can demonstrate, right? The DPU needs to be an independent agency and I believe we are. So we've got to work through with FTA to ensure that we can show them as our quasi judicial independent agency, that we have the ability to put up our firewalls and we can do all that is necessary to ensure that they are comfortable with our answers on that one but that's a conversation that we need to have with FTA on a continual basis.

They want us to increase inspection and verification, totally appropriate. Given the level of work that's been happening on MBTA, we need more people in the field it's the trust but1640 verify. If MBTA is changing procedures, if they're changing actions in the yard, if they're changing the codes that conductors have to use, if they are changing anything on their system, you both have to make sure that the people saying are saying it correctly and the people hearing it are hearing it correctly. The inspection and verification role the department plays is essential and given the amount of work that ties in with the additional resources, we want to make sure we can be out there in the field and we can interview people and we can talk to people, make sure that they are absorbing what happens.

We want to observe these new procedures in place, we want to make sure people have checklists. You mentioned the runaway train, we want to make sure people have checklists that they are taking every step needed to avoid those incidents. Then the last one that they have on this program1698 oversight which is making sure we1699 understand all of the caps and all the actions the MBTA needs to do and that we are adopting those and overseeing the MBTA and we agree with that as well.

STRAUS - So you raise a couple I think of very important issues when you talk about the audit function, the quasi judicial function of the DPU if it's operating as intended, which I'll paraphrase it's goal to be well oversight that examines, makes recommendations, makes unpopular recommendations at times over this issue. So, in the FTA report, they include an organizational chart. The MBTA currently is structured as a general manager, there's a board of directors, but it goes up the chain of command,1743 so to speak to the secretary to the Governor.1748 DPU exists within a different secretariat, environmental affairs and up to the Governor.

We have a number of different models in Massachusetts where we look to provide that independent quasi judicial audit function where at times in different positions, Inspector general comes to mind, you may have different constitutional officers, not all within the Governor's purview that a point and retain people in these roles. So let's talk going forward because I know given your job, these are things you think about all the time. What would a better DPU in order to foster that critical independent role look like?

Would you have any recommendations beyond what the FTA came up with as to how to make the DPU organizationally more independent? Should we involve in a appointing role for what are currently three commissioners, other people? Attorney general, whoever, do you have any recommendations? And if you don't today, could you get them to us for creating a more independent functioning DPU for its oversight role of the MBTA?

NELSON - I think it's a very good question and you were right. It's a question I think about often since the report came out and I want1878 to make sure that we both understand why FTA is1881 observing that there's an issue and how to appropriately address it. So I'll say two things right up front, so you know, I'm going to answer it in the abstract because I think we're going to get to you the actual answer at a later time because we still have to finalize what we are going to respond to FTA with and I don't want to say something declarative that could be contradicted when I sit down with all my lawyers and the people in my organization that aren't me that will advise me on the right way to structure things.

But let's talk about it in the1919 abstract because I think1921 it's a very fair question. The DPU is a quasi judicial agency, we oversee all sorts of facets of things that are very important to critical infrastructure in the commonwealth, right? We oversee multiple pieces of that, so we have a pipeline safety division and that safety division has gone through tough times and and I think that we have spent a lot of time staffing up and making sure that division is functioning and has now been recognized by the federal government as a top program in the country. But we also have auditing functions and accountants and economists that look at the other side of the coin, House under the DPU as well who understand rates and revenue and things like that.

For the rail program, we have support functions in legal staff, we have support functions in HR and IT staff. We also have people that understand rates and revenues that are within the transportation division and then we have our field people who go out there, do the physical inspections, engage with the people, do the interviews and we know how to do that. I mean it's court of what we do as the department do and those people are just separate, they do their thing, right? There are 100% focused on MBTA. We have someone on call 24 hours a day, seven days a week in that division to respond to anything that may be going on at any hour of the day of the MBTA.

So what is the other options, right? I would say if FTA is making2024 a finding about independence, I would probably be reticent to recommend anything that would put it closer to the MBTA in the executive office, right? If we moved under transportation, and so I think in order to properly answer that question, we really want to have a lengthy discussion with FTA and ensure we're meeting these requirements. But we have a long history of putting up firewalls at the department, right? We have to deal with prosecutorial staff and presiding staff and we know how to do these things, so we have a firm understanding of what independence means, both conceptually both from a public perspective and also from a legal perspective. So we're capable of doing that and that's something we're going to have to figure out.

STRAUS - I think the best I can do on this question is you've assured me that I've asked the right person. So what is the date by which you will give us an answer?

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NELSON - We have to respond by September 29th.

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STRAUS - So you'll include us on the circulation list of these question?

NELSON - Absolutely.

STARUS - Okay. So just briefly, so I know what resources you have and what you hope to have,2141 the transportation division within the DPU is how many people today?

NELSON - Right now, we have six members of the transportation division who are field staff, we have an assistant director who is fully dedicated to the division and then we have a division director who has time dedicated to both common carrier, which are things like buses, towing companies and the like and MBTA rail. Although, I will fully admit the director is extremely involved in the rail division and as am I.

STRAUS - How many people do you think you should have in order to do the job we're talking about?

NELSON - So I found that when you're staffing up divisions and I've done this before in safety context, you want to reach a threshold that you're not, if you bring in 25 people all at once, it's hard to train those people2235 adequately. You need to give these people proper attention. So we have a comprehensive staffing plan. The first thing that we're looking to do is we have jobs posted on our DPU website and I will say that live because I think one of the best things that can come of this committee is for people to know the DPU is hiring skilled and trained workforce. So2254 we have engineer jobs, we have compliance officer jobs and we have auditor jobs, all of those roles, play critical functions in overseeing things. So what we're going to do is we're going to add come to about doubling the staff currently and then we're going to step back and take an assessment.

We've also added another assistant director and we're trying to hire in a very competitive way, a director of rail safety, fully dedicated to rail and paid at market rates, which is something I think will be very valuable so that that person can bring equal knowledge as if they were going to run any SSO program in the commonwealth or in the country. In addition, when we bring on these other staff, we want to make sure that we're there being adequately training and adequately supporting. So we are having talks with consultants and the consultants are coming in in order to both assist with the growth but also to have knowledge of how FTA operates around the country and establish best practices and take and you know, frankly steal from other organizations that have figured some of these things out that can improve our program.

STRAUS - Okay, two quick follow ups and I have one, but on the follow ups, I expect short answers, by when do you and you're not in control entirely because you only want to hire qualified candidates, but by when do you have a goal to staff from 6 to 12? Then secondly, who are the consultants you've hired?

NELSON - Sure. Right now we have under contract vital assurance and we are2356 in discussions with other consultants that, you know, we're in contract discussions with them, so I don't want to really talk about the specific names there. From 6 to 12, I will tell you, we are looking to bring those people on as soon as they are able to come on. We are ready to hire people, we're ready to on board people and we have the whole team ready2380 to bring them on as soon as possible. We don't really have a target date by which will be to the full 12 in the current hiring environment, it's challenging. I will mention that we're very sensitive to the fact that MBT is also hiring folks as well, so we are coordinating with them to ensure that we are not competing with each other.

STARUS - Last thing Chapter 159 sets out and it's identified in the FTA report that the jurisdiction that brings you2409 into this transit area, transportation area and it includes within your jurisdiction, ships or vessels in excess of 100 gross tons powered by steam or diesel, so this statute goes2423 way back but it's there. Do you actually do maritime related supervision or is this really functionally something that we look to the US Coast Guard? Because if you don't need that jurisdiction, please say so. Yes.

NELSON - I can feel comfortable saying on the record that we don't need that jurisdiction. I will say the Department of public utilities was the first public utility commission in America and we have overseen a lot of critical infrastructure over our time in different variations of what the DPU is. So we have a lot of ancient statutes um but we are very clear and we do regular updates to make sure that what we have is current and that we have the adequate staff to comply with all current laws.

STRAUS - Okay. So the public will be safe if we rely on the US Coast Guard going forward with regard and I only bring it2484 up because within the tease modes are ferries?

NELSON - Yes.

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CRIGHTON - I just had one follow up on the topic of independence that was raised by Chair Straus your independence from the MBTA as2507 an oversight agency. The FTA report instructed your department and I quote, 'examine and ensure its organizational and legal independence from the MBTA.' At this last hearing for quite some time, we discussed the communications processes that occurred after three blue line construction car derailment that occurred on May 7th and May 9th. I want to talk a little bit about those incidents in some of the decisions that follow. You mentioned earlier, you don't deal in press releases that it's more behind the scenes in terms of your work that you do have a communications department.

In the reporting of Taylor Golden of the globe of this incident. It showed that the Deputy Communications2552 director of the DPU when asked about these derailments forwarded the request to the MBTA taking guidance from the MBTA Deputy Press secretary on how to respond. When the DPUs draft statement included information about the three derailments, the MBTA asked them to hold off DPUs draft statement was never then sent to reporters. So with the DPU having safety oversight on the MBTA, I am just very confused as to why you would seek the MBTA's guidance, the agency you're2581 supposed to oversee before issuing a statement on a safety incident. I just want to know is this standard practice for any and all safety incidents?

NELSON - So, first, it's a very fair question. I want to say it's an open investigation, right? The actual blue line incident is an open investigation, so I'm not going to2602 address what occurred in that, I want to talk a little bit about that process and that press release. I think when FTA says is the department independent? That is exactly the type2618 of thing that they want us to assess. Again, you don't see press statements from the department often, we respond to reporters because you know we are civil servants, That's what we do. We share communication services and so that we can be more accurate that way, but we're not holding off identifying the safety issues to either FTA or the MBTA.

I think in this particular incident, there could have been better communications along that line that would have resulted in ideally the department being able to release that information but let me say this, the department would never give facts about an open investigation to the press, so when we're talking about a response, I think we just want to make sure that the information that we are providing is public information and that is typically, in my experience our coordination with the MBTA, so that we're not revealing information that may still be subject to the open investigation that we have. So that is my assessment of what happened here and so when we complete investigations now that information, we know clear delineation lines of what is confidential what is public, it's much easier. Our press team is fairly firewalled off from the actual information of the events, so even though the press may have held or may have coordinated with MBTA, we're talking more about whether that line is something that is public information or something that2747 is under open investigation in my experience is what I found.

CRIGHTON - I certainly appreciate the sensitivity of an ongoing investigation, I understand that but in this incident, it seemed like you were moving forward with one approach and you were told either by the MBTA or from the Governor to not do that and I guess as an independent agency with oversight, how often are you taking directions from either the MBTA or this administration rather than operating independently?

NELSON - Well, I can answer that directly from my experience in safety oversight and my director's experience in oversight. I have never received a direction from anyone in the administration to not move forward with a safety action. We've never been told to back down on an action that we were going to take, right? Externally, internally, we2798 have debates about what the right action to take is, but externally with a member of the Secretariat, with a member of the Governor's Office, with executive members of the MBTA, I have never been told to back down and I have never held something that is of safety in nature or is part of our open investigation we have. I think the incident your referring to again is press related and that is something that I could see the perception.

I talked earlier about both public perception, but also about legal independence and I2832 think when FTA talks about making sure we do an assessment about our legal independence, it's ensuring that both we are doing the right things, which I'm very confident we are going to be able to demonstrate to them but I am also concerned that the public perception that something like this could seem like we were holding back, but again, I'm fully comfortable saying I've never been told to back down on anything that we've done here at the department.

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SEN KEENAN - Certainly, it's quite a serious issue given many incidents that have been occurring as outlined by both Chairs. I want to read something first as a foundation of a couple of2922 questions that I'm2923 going to ask afterwards and this is taken from the FTA report. In conducting the SMI, FTA focused on operations training, training, vehicle maintenance signals and train control, track access and capital project delivery, traction power facilities, capital projects and safety management. FTA requested and reviewed over 1500 documents, conducted over 200 interviews with MBTA staff including Executive Leadership, Technical Leadership, mid level management supervision, frontline employees, union leadership and representatives from DPU SSO program.

They conducted dozens of field inspections of MBTAs operations control center, stations and maintenance facilities, track signal, train control systems, traction power infrastructure and vehicles. FTA rode the entire MBTA real transit system and conducted head car ride observations on portions of the2985 Green Line. FTA also inspected track on the Green and Orange lines and visited the locations of recent safety events as well as major capital projects including the Green Line extension project and the Green Line train protection system project. FTA inspected each major rail transit yard and vehicle maintenance facility including Cabinet Yard, Cardigan Yard, Green Line Extension, vehicle maintenance facility, Reservoir Yard, Riverside Yard, Wellington Yard and Orient Height Yard. FTA also reviewed numerous data polls and reports from MBTA information management systems including its enterprise asset management, EAM system, it's maintenance information management system to Pease and systems in the operations control center and safety developments.

DPUs mission statement says that the DPU oversees the public safety from transportation and gas pipeline related accidents. Interpretation of that is they are there to protect the public from transportation and gas pipeline related accidents focusing on transportation here and3044 that they are to play a role in preventing them because the word used in the mission statement is from not after or as a result of but from. So with that in mind, I asked has the DPU done anything similar in the last three years, five years or 10 years in scope to what the FTA did as they prepared their report?

NELSON - So the first thing I'll say is we we've conducted over 100 field visits in the last six months. So our folks, our civil servants that are at the DPU because they believe in that core mission of protecting the public from incidents are fully committed every day to being out there. They go to every major accident and they give us independent assessments of what happened and they interview people on site. We have had multiple different things that we've identified with the MBTA, that we have developed and put corrective action plans on. The FTA report is actually indicating the department which has issued a number of different directives and has open caps needs to start working at closing the caps.

The fact that we have so many open caps is an indication that we are identifying hazards and problems on the MBTA system and that's because we are vigilant and we try to get out there and do it every single day, but we3149 also want to talk about prevention and I think that was a key thing that you said in the mission statement and that's something that is a lot more difficult to achieve with the current resources we have. Our response in the past has been root cause analysis after an accident occurs, something happens, we go out and figure out why it happened and then stop it from happening again. The new mission and I fully embrace it, is what's happening across the safety industry from FAA, to pipeline safety to interstate rail companies, anywhere you look is preventative actions and so we need to be out in the field more not to identify when things happen after the fact, but to identify them before it ever becomes a collision or derailment.

So FTA is pushing our program to evolve and enhance the safety oversight we already do. But when I tell you that our folks are out there, we've interviewed people and found people we have, we know with the green line, for example. The green line, some of the collisions were speed related, we've had people out there with light our guns in street close independently auditing the speed of the MBTA. Something that we took enforcement actions on the MBTA for because we needed to ensure that MBTA was recognizing and controlling the speed of the green line trains because we wanted to prevent collisions. We weren't trying to do it after the fact, we were saying we have identified this as a hazard, we have identified this problem, we are asking MBTA to monitor their speed but we're verifying, we're going out there inspecting and verifying that they're doing it appropriately.

Our enforcement action was taken because we found that the MBTA wasn't doing that action properly. So have we done the same level as FDA? FDA had a very concentrated time period where they came in and did there SMI, they had lots of consultants that came in and did it over a short amount of period of time because they were addressing major issues. I think we were there every step of the way with FTA, we were on site with them for everything that they were talking about. We were learning from them and we were providing our information to them to enhance their report because again, this isn't an us or them issue, it's a bipartisan issue. MBTA wants3291 their system safe, we want their system safe and FTA wants their system safe. It's an accountability and resource issue in my mind.

KEENAN - You indicate that there's a staff of six, how does that number compared to the number of individuals staff the natural gas vision for pipeline safety division or the rates and revenue division or even the legal division.

NELSON - Yes. So let me compare some numbers, I think when we3317 started to move from a reactive approach to our natural gas safety division, it was very comparable. We had about 6-8 PUEs in our pipeline safety division. We have actively been posting jobs and hiring people even before this report came out from FTA but we have now expanded the natural gas division with the support of the legislature to be closer to I think 20-23, I don't have that off the top of my head, but it's a larger3351 group of PUEs that are in the field. With MBTA rail division, we are also looking to double the amount of3360 staff and I think from that point you take an assessment, I'm not saying that's the right number and we know the perfect amount, no, we have to expand it.

Find out what we're seeing in the field, find out if MBTA is changing their habits and actions, whether their staff is working the correct amount of hours, whether their staff has all the appropriate training and then we have to identify, do we want more staff in the field or do we want more staff auditing their books? Right. Because one of the things that FTA pointed out was the lack of lapse of certification in FTA employees and training materials is another thing.3426 That's not a field visit, that's someone in back of the house auditing, looking at what's happening, looking at what is being said and3433 looking at how it's being distributed.

So I can't tell you the target number of people we have, we're going to have as many as is needed and we want to make sure that's a sufficient amount, but that's an ongoing, every month, every quarter, taking a look, identifying the problem, talking to staff, having meetings with them and trying to figure out what they're seeing in the field if they feel overwhelmed, if they feel like, hey, I went to this yard and I feel like I need to go out there every day and how are we going to make that happen? So that's kind of my answer to that question.

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KEENAN - So you're going to3472 double from 6-12 is what you said earlier, but acknowledging that the natural gas division and pipeline divisions that they may even have twice that number, but you're in the process of finding that correct number?

NELSON - Yes. And back to what I said before, we want to make sure that when we bring people on board that they are properly trained.

KEENAN - So have you3492 looked at other agencies across the country or even internationally to see what their staffing levels look like in the roles of the staff relative to safety and accident prevention, have you taken a look at that to see how that may compared to what we're doing here?

NELSON - Yes. It would be a data point that we have looked at. We are aware of many different states have many different models.3522 I will know that MBTA is not as big as New York but it's older and it has a lot of complex pieces to it that I'm sure the T can speak to the complexities of the line it runs. If you compare it to Chicago which runs more constant but they built their system in a way where they can take cars out of service and run tracks more frequently, so they have more time to do construction and maintenance. So, I'm not trying to cop out of the answer, but it's not apples and oranges. The other thing that we've seen in other states is they often used outside contractors and consultants to scale there SLA which is something that I think we're also pursuing and looking at as something in Massachusetts where we can bring in consultants that maybe for an economic reason or for a time reason makes more sense when you have a surge, right?

You want to make sure when you have an incident like happening that you can try to get the amount of people you need to get in the field to look at all the operations and everything happening but then on the flip side, you know once you get everything what I would call a blue sky day when things return to normal, you have to do a3592 staffing assessment there3593 and make sure you have the right number of folks. So the DPU again3598 has experience in doing this across different departments it has under it and we constantly add or move around or redesign the way we do our structure to align with both the laws and the volume of what's happening at a given time.

KEENAN - I appreciate that and it feeds the concern I have and that's whether the DPU has presently the ability and the resources to do what has to be done. I think the answer is no and whether in the short term, they will have the staffing and resources necessary. You mentioned the word evolving, without respect, I don't think this is something that can evolve, I think it's something that needs immediate prompt attention. What kind of feeds that is I have a concern about where this ranks3654 as a priority and I suspect and expect and fully understand that you're going to say it is a priority but when you look at even the mission statement, I think there's 125 words in the mission statement and there's 10 words that in any way address transportation, and I know that's not necessarily a way to determine an entities commitment to something that they are responsible for a relative oversight, but I think I find it somewhat telling.

In the DPU's 2021 annual report which was about 88 pages total, 55 pages of text bus appendixes, there are four pages that cover the legal division, eight pages cover natural natural gas, five pages cover the pipeline safety, five pages cover rates and revenue requirements division, four pages cover transportation oversight and within those four pages about one page that addresses the MBTA and it addresses it in a rather broad way, talks a little bit about meeting some of the recommendations of findings, addressing some of the recommendations or findings but no real detail. So it feeds my concern in addition to the concern about whether is the ability and the resources, how quickly it will be able to obtain those resources. I think it's the bigger question of is this a priority and I am concerned that it is not a priority.

NELSON - So I would say first on the mission statement, the reason why it's done the way it's done is because that was legislatively written by the TUE committee. So obviously, if you have any issues with that, I think that that is where that came from. On the reporting and the dedication, which I will get to because I think it's really important to talk about. I mean, this is my first time appearing before this committee, I'm honestly honored to be here, I'm glad that we get to talk about this, I think it's a valuable thing. I think the DPU can play a critical role in oversight of MBTA and I have no problem and I actually think it would be valuable for us to be an independent voice that the Legislature can rely on when they have questions about what's going on at the MBTA.

To that degree, it's just something that we do for a number of different parts of the legislature, that relationship I think can evolve and I think we provide a valuable function to the commonwealth that way because we at the core are only interested in consumer protection, right? We're only interested in making the situation better at the MBTA. So if the legislative document is a little small, that's probably because my people were prioritizing working on the safety in the field and we can definitely improve on that. But you're right, I want to make sure that I make it clear, I'm not trying to make excuses for anything, we need more3855 resources and we have a staffing3856 plan and we are looking at hiring short term consultants that can come on board and instantly increase both our competency, don't mean training and can get in the field.

FTA is aware that that is things that we're looking at and things were doing their asking for our staffing plan and3875 we are providing it3876 to them. I think that you are right, we are not looking to do this in a few months but when I say evolve, I truly mean this. Safety is not something that happens overnight, safety especially proactive safety is something that happens from constant vigilance every single day and that every person at the MBTA is on the same page about what needs to be done, what documents need to be filed and what the protocols and procedures are. So when I'm talking about evolving, I'm not talking about our short term plan, I'm talking about our long term plan. Our short term plan needs to be done quickly to improve the processes on the MBTA.

KEENAN - For sure and I appreciate that and I know it is a difficult task, very involved task. I3922 know that DPU has broad responsibilities and handles them well and you take the natural gas situation, the response I think has been commendable there but I think we need to recognize that there's a sense of urgency here. Yes. Safety doesn't happen overnight but you know what and I don't mean to be flipped, people die in an instant on our MBTA and we have to recognize that.

NELSON - Yes but I will say that the DPU having an additional two staff isn't going to make that not happen, right? I think we have a functional critical role in the ecosystem of the safety of the T but the T itself is still the primary defender of what happens on its system. It3976 has the conductors that need to be properly trained. It has a large safety department that oversees all the actions of what happens on a day to day basis and has to ensure that everyone is trained and appropriately done. We watch what3989 they do and we correct, amend, approve the things that they are doing and and so I think you're already seeing a shift in the MBTA'S culture. The3999 Orange line shutdown was a safety first decision, right? That's a safety first decision. Much debated around all the other aspects of it but given the amount of work that needs to happen on that Orange4015 line to get it up to code and we'll see when it comes back online, right?

Trust but verify we'll see how that goes. The other last piece I want to mention on this is, I am the Chair of the department and I have a lot of cross agency responsibilities, there's other Commissioners at the department that help and can cover multiple areas but the folks in the transportation division, in the rail division are 100% dedicated to rail. If something happens in the Natural Division, it doesn't detract from their time and they have dedicated legal staff that are there to assist them when they have an issue. So4053 in terms of resources there are silos of workers that are fully and completely dedicated you know 24 hours a day to the train and that's what those six people plus the assistant director plus a director are doing.

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KEENAN - You mentioned the work that's been done in the Orange and Trust but verify what4082 is being done right now by DPU4084 to verify that the work is being done in such a way that will ensure the safety of Orange Line riders on Monday?

NELSON - Yes and our folks have been going out4093 there for site visits in the field in the Orange Line. They've been looking at the construction protocols both when they set things up, they've been looking at all the actions that are being taken to do rail work, to do work on the actual trains themselves, we've been going out there multiple times a week, right? We've got use of making sure that the construction workers are using the appropriate PPE, that they're following the procedures that have been outlined, that they have the checklist that have been dictated by both the DPU and FTA whenever they go to a safety site, so, that's been a big surge, that's been a big thing that we have been focusing on but we're also in addition to that, doing the other aspects of our job that need to be done, including weekly visits to the control center including going to rail yards because we don't want to you know focus on something and lose sight but in terms of workflow management, we have been going out multiple times a week to the orange line.

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REP CAPANO - You mentioned a few times where problems have been identified and communicated. I'm just wondering about the execution and taking corrective action on those problems and you know, whether there have been other problems identified and you know, what is the execution like so that if the communications okay, but nobody follows through or whether it's because of staffing or other reasons what happens, it just makes me think about, you know, are there are other problems that that we should be concerned about?

NELSON - Yes, reflecting the Chairs remark and try to go into a little bit of lightning round. FTA anticipated that and coordinated with the DPU. We have caps that are outside the scope of the special investigation, we had to go through a process of what they call deconflicting those caps, so we were able to ensure that we were making sure MBTA was prioritizing the right things in the right order and that they were all rowing in the same direction.

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CAPANO - The auditing role that the DPU has, does that include auditing the safety program or the prevention program and what is the role there? I know that you said that there's going to be changes and you're going to become more proactive in the future but I was just wondering does the audit include you know, whether safety protocols are being followed, whether job has an analysis or root cause analysis of problems, whether those are being followed? Is that part of the auditing procedure that you know that DPU has responsibility for?

NELSON - Yes it is, and we take very seriously our role in doing observations of what actions are being taken in the field either by people being trained, by people giving instruction, by people taking instructions and we verify that through audits and interviews with people. I think sometimes the best way you can find out retention of information4411 is by talking to people. So our folks interview and talk to those people to make sure that their understanding it, we do speed checks, we do all sorts of work to try to ensure that we can look at the records and are retained in the appropriate way. So we both have a in the field presence but we also have an office presence.

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REP KERANS - So you know as I listen to the description of the DPU, and I'm more familiar with the DPU in terms of licensing plants, which was the case up my way in the Peabody Peaker plant. Full disclosure, I was very disappointed that the DPU didn't grant intervener status to a single entity. As I listen, I'm wondering if capacity not not peak energy capacity, capacity for your agency to carry out its functions is at work and you you did mention that you are quasi judicial, your independent, you have a number of auditors and economists. At any point, did you go to the administration and say we're looking at the T, we're looking at everything on our plate, we've got to have more resources to properly cover all of our functions?

NELSON - So back to the structure of the DPU. We look at that all the time and we have had constant communications with the4541 administration, with Chairs of house ways and means, with A&F around our structure and what we need to support it. We have lots of legislation that comes out on a constant basis with the DPU, expanding our roles, rules and regulations, we increase4566 our staffing appropriately. So it is certainly something we are aware of all the time, but we ensure that individual divisions are being supported in their individual functions. You mentioned one of the other cases we have, that was a primarily a legal and accounting case. So we have accountants and legal staff that looked at that case, those people do not interface with the people that are in the field working on the MBTA actions, so those are separate. So there are different categories of FTEs but together and on the executive side we have a common thread about understanding how safety is structured and what resources need to be aware.

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KERANS - You also have referred to the emphasis on safety. Safety is synonymous with maintenance, so as you go about these functions of inspecting, where does that4620 information travel once you've assembled it? Do you send it in a memo to the to the T? Do you then once you're Commissioners, I don't know do they vote to accept what you assembled in terms of inspections along the way and what do you do with that information so that that daily vigilance that you've referenced actually occurs?

NELSON - So I know we were enlightening round but you've asked an administrative agency a process questions so please indulge me here. We have lots of different steps depending on the level and the information that occurs, so I'll start at the highest level. If there's an enforcement action that gets signed by the commission, there is a legal process for that, that means there has to be a written order, there has to be review of the order and we have to have the commission signed that order, that has the weight and legality and significance of the department behind it. We use that in instances where the T is not doing something that we think they should be doing.

Now, let's talk about where I think the T is on the majority of the time which is a balancing of their resources and prioritizing various issues. The way the department does that is we go through their records, we have multiple meetings with them to go over how they're identifying hazards, how they're prioritizing hazards and what we do is we assess how significant different things are and if they have them in the right order. We can correct them through normal conversations in the meeting at the very base level, we can send emails to them telling them what our expectations are, we have what is the most commonly used and most effective device which is opening a corrective action plan where we outline in detail what we think the deficiency is and we have them respond to those items and we close them out as they start to do the things that need to be done.

So we have a number of different corrective action plans that we've opened on the T. So those are a couple of different ways that we can do things but we have a lot of tools in their tool belt and depending on the significance of the event and the willingness of MBTA to kind of engage and change their behavior, that's how we kind of issue, what the correct action is in oversight4802 of the T. We do not have financial authority over the T, unlike we do for gas and distribution companies, but nevertheless, we still have a significant role in their safety and we make sure the safety department and both the general manager and the kind of operations team are aware of what DPU is looking at and what we think is and is not being addressed.

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KERANS - How many enforcement actions on the T has the DPU opened and closed prior to the 2019 report since?

NELSON - We have one open enforcement action currently and we took one enforcement action in the past. In addition, we've done a number of studies where we brought in independent consultants to4858 look at and dissect4860 significant problems on the T, the last one I believe we did was on the green line study. So those actions we've taken, they usually are barely well publicized and get immediate actions from the T. So you know that kind of consulting report and bringing someone in is something we've done in the past when we've seen a significant issue. In this particular instance, FTA has identified what they think the priorities are and so what we are doing is working through and going4892 through those steps and those processes.

KERANS - Okay, so one before 2019 and one since?

NELSON - Yes.

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REP BLAIS - I just want to go back to Chair Crighton's line of questioning on the 16 filings of noncompliance. You had indicated in your answer that this is the first time before this committee and we're glad to have you here but you are required to file annual reports with the legislature, and I went back to take a look at your 2020 and 2021 annual reports to the legislature, there are vague references to the audit that you received on December 8th in 2020. There is no mention of how many findings there were or what they were, there was no information about how many or which ones were closed. I'm just wondering if you can please explain why these findings of noncompliance from the FTA5000 were not included in your annual reports to the legislature in both 2020 and 2021 in any detail?

NELSON - Yes, I think the way I would answer that is just to be honest that if I could go back and include them, I would. I know that we have a detailed rail report that we outlined those issues to the Governor and it was more5024 detailed than the DPU annual report. I think ensuring that what we put in the annual report is more in line with that would be the best practice that we would absolutely adopt going forward.

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BLAIS - You noted that you are a consumer protection agency and you were talking with my friend and colleague Rep Capano about your responsibility to audit the safety plans. The FTA notes in the report that the employee safety reporting program, the ASRP is part of the safety plan, the MBTA safety plan. The FTA reports that it's largely limited to the safety hotline. So in effect, the safety hotline is the ASRP. The FTA reviewed the safety hotline and found that only a small percentage of reports are about safety concerns and that most reports do not rise above the level of individual housekeeping issues or complaints. So if5105 this ineffective hotline was the MBTAs ASRP and the ASRP is part of the MBTA safety plan and your job is to audit the safety plan. How could it go unnoticed that there was no effective employee safety reporting program in place? I ask this question specifically as we will hear from employees who will be appearing before the committee today.

NELSON - Yes, I think that the way I would answer that would be the department also interviews employees when it goes out into the field when there's an incident or accident, so we do get firsthand accounting of what's going on. In addition, I know that there are whistleblower lines for employees to use in incidents where there is a problem but I think that that is an area that is probably pretty concerning and I think is something that we can take a look at within all of the actions that we have to do.

Obviously, having a more robust program for employees to feel that they are able to report incidents is paramount to kind of a safety first program. Like when we have incidents, when we had gas incidents, we want to make sure that we have an ability for employees at any level to feel comfortable to stop work that's being done if they feel there is a safety incident. So having that is extremely important and I think that's something that we need to work on and improve.

BLAIS - I agree 100%. I guess my question is why didn't your own audits uncover the fact that this was not an effective program whatsoever?

NELSON - Well, and I would say that because we are absolutely looking to prioritize how and what needs to be addressed. Working with FTA, one of the big things5239 we wanted to look at was issues around derailments and collisions. That is what was prioritized as our number one issue. When we talk about additional resources, I think you're hitting the point home for what I think we need to do better, which is ensuring that I can have staff and have additional people look at every aspect of their plans and I think that's when you really get to building out a safety culture at the MBTA because something that is not getting the attention it deserves to get is something that we can have someone focus on and push the MBTA to develop and enhance.

There's a lot of different issues that deserve attention at the MBTA and I think part of what I was talking about before us sitting down with the MBTA to prioritize those lists is exactly the thing that needs to happen. So what I'll say is we have to do better on looking at certain aspects of programs that maybe were not on the top of the list and we're doing that. One of the things I will say is5301 some of the biggest issues and everyone knows the headlines like the Orange line, the fact that the T is able to get five years work of work done on safety and maintenance on the Orange line in a month will5316 allow more resources to start looking at issues just like the one you raised, Rep.

BLAIS - I think that you know our employees and certainly the ones that we're going to hear from our front line and we want to make sure that we have an effective employee safety reporting program in place. It's my understanding that the DPU must review and approve the MBTAs corrective action plans and that it is your responsibility to track5348 and monitor implementation. If the caps to address the FTA directives are not acted upon, what are the consequences?

NELSON - We will take enforcement actions.

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BLAIS - You'll take enforcement action but if we do not act upon them, what is the result from the federal government? What are the actions that they can take?

NELSON - Great? What I will say is I don't want to speculate as to what FTA could do, what they have told us they want us to do is that in instances5391 where MBTA is not complying with caps that they are directed to do, we should take enforcement actions. That goes back to the Chairs questions, why have we taken two? We've taken two because the MBTA is not a unwilling entity to do things in the name of safety, they are earnestly trying to make their system better for the riders of the T, and so it's not a willingness it's a resource and logistics issue for the T. I think that's the biggest hurdle that we're getting over.

They have a system that is getting older, a system that needs a lot of work and they are finding ways, creative ways, thought leading ways to try to get at those problems. If the MBTA says to us know or we don't think you've identified an issue that we are prioritizing, that is when the DPU can take an enforcement action and basically use our legal authority to prioritize that item for the T and we don't do that lightly.

BLAIS - Yeah, it's my it's my from my reading of some of the safety plans that have been presented to the board of directors and the safety subcommittees that if the directives are not acted upon, the FTA can withhold up to5466 25% of financial assistance. So I just want to make sure that everyone here understands the significant financial impacts that this could have if the DPU does not uphold its role as reviewing approving tracking and monitoring implementation.5481 Thank you. Mr Chair.

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BETSY TAYLOR - MBTA BOARD OF DIRECTORS - Thank you for the opportunity to testify before the Joint Committee on Transportation. My name is Betsy Taylor and I am Chair of the MBTA Board of directors. I am also Chair the board's audit and finance subcommittee and I am a member of the past DOT board of directors. Before my current role, I worked at the Massachusetts Port Authority for 37 years in a variety of financial positions, culminating as the Director of Finance and Treasury, and I continue to serve as an elected member of the Mass port employee retirement system. I have also worked for the University of Massachusetts central office as assistant director in their budget office. As you5724 know, the board of directors was established under the MBTAs enabling Act. Chapter 161 A of5731 the Massachusetts laws as amended last summer in July of 2021.

The MBTA board consists of seven members, the Secretary of Transportation for the commonwealth who serves ex officio and one person appointed by the MBTA advisory board who has municipal government experience in the5751 service area constituting the MBTA, and experience and transportation operations, transportation planning, housing, urban development that is Mayor Coke of5759 Quincy. Then there are five board members appointed by the Governor, one of whom has experience in safety, Scott Darling, the head of our safety committee, one of whom needs experience in transportation operations Mary5776 Beth mellow who has a5777 long and distinguished career with the FTA.

One of whom has experience in public private finance, that's myself, one who is a rider as defined by the enabling act and is a resident of an environmental justice community Travis McCready and finally one selected from5797 a list of three persons recommended by the President of the state Labor Council, AFL-CIO, that is Robert Butler who is head of the sheet metal workers. The statute also required that the board established subcommittees and indeed we have one, one on safety, health and the environment, one on planning and workforce development and an audit and finance committee. As I am only one member of a seven member board, I cannot speak on behalf of the entire board, however, I do want to tell the committee that since I have been on the board, the safety of our customers and employees has been and remains the board's top priority.

I said so at my first committee meeting, I have repeatedly had support from my fellow members in this view and I have repeated our priority at subsequent committees. In my testimony this morning, I want to touch on several topics. First, as the recently released safety management inspection report demonstrated, the MBTA has a lot of work to do to make the system safer. We are grateful for the expertise in partnership with the FTA. We look forward to continue working with our federal partners and indeed with the state partners who we heard speak earlier and we are fully committed to funding all of the actions recommended by the FTA in their safety management inspection final report. Second, the current amount of deferred maintenance at the MBTA did not happen overnight, nor did it occur in a single decade.

It will not be quick or easy to catch up on that much needed work. It will take years of dedicated resources and hard work to bring the tease assets to the desires state of good repair. Having said that nothing, nothing excuses the recent safety incidents at the T. I along with the rest of the board are dedicated to taking steps to improve the T safety performance, its safety culture, the capacity of its human resources department and that T's financial stability required to support those efforts. Thirdly, I want to address some of the hiring challenges the MBTA has faced. The MBTA is not alone in this problem. Many of our colleagues transportation agencies across the country are experiencing similar challenges.

A recent study conducted by the5961 American Public Transportation Association, a leading transportation industry group showed the following; one for the nine and 10 public transit agencies, 92% stated they are having difficulty in hiring new employees, bus operations positions are the most5980 difficult to fill. Two, almost two thirds of the agency's 66% indicated they are having difficulty retaining existing employees. Three, nearly three in four transit agencies, 71% said that they either had to cut service or delay adding additional service because of worker shortages. Four, one half of transit agencies, 52% have increased their starting pay in response to working shortages. Finally fifth more than 1/3 of 38% have implemented sign on bonuses, 39% have implemented referral bonuses and 17% have implemented retention bonuses.

The MBTA has implemented6032 all five of these specific actions and others to help solve this serious problem. The board is regularly updated by the T leadership on the T strategic plan regarding how they intend to deal with this continuing and difficult problem. Lastly, I want to address the transfer of 500 million from the T's, unallocated federal funds capital account. There has been a lot of attention focused on this matter and I want the committee to understand the specifics of the transfer because I think it is important for the board and the public to understand exactly why the board supported this action. The decision was rooted in the concept that one turn funds whenever possible should be spent on one time uses with lasting long term benefits.

More specifically, these funds were allocated to accelerate key capital investments and safety, to advance key employee recruitment and retention initiatives, to invent6126 key shovel ready and shovel6128 worthy projects, to advance improvements in bus facilities and to prepare for additional federal formula funding6136 and finally to preserve the existing capital problems program. It is a problem. For example, 145 million went to ensuring that we get local amount for federal funding and the T has assembled a team that is very aggressively seeking additional federal funds. 170 million went to the green line protection system to accelerate6162 its design and installation. No prior ford had funded this important initiative. 20 million went for employee initiatives such as frontline employee pandemic pay and adding staff to the HR department.

48 million went for the commuter rail automatic train control safety program which is federally mandated. As you can see these investments, advance critical safety project. The MBTA can and must continue to make these types of projects of priority if we are to restore the public confidence and make the system safer and more reliable. Indeed, last month, I called on the staff to present a6208 list of safety projects within the capital program that can be quickly accelerated in the year ahead. In closing, I want to thank you again for allowing me this opportunity to speak. I look forward to continuing to partner with the Legislature as we advance key initiatives and share more about our progress with and the public in making the MBTA a safer place.

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STRAUS - I guess I wanted to jump into what I had talked to you before the hearing started, what hopefully are the larger questions that the legislature along with the the administration current one and the new one that starts in January is going to be faced6287 with because uh Uh we have these two reports. So I wanted to first ask you in terms of your view on6299 the role of the board. As you indicated back in 2015, we created the control board and it had a time limit on it and as we look to its expiration date working with the Governor, we adopted the statute that created the board you're on, being some of the meeting demands based on I think what everyone was seeing so that the T and Mass DOT staff could better focus on their tasks.

So we made some changes but in a real sense we didn't make changes that would have I think limited the activism of the board and fair or not, there was a lot of public comment in 2019 when the control board initiated what everyone refers to as the LaHood report from 2019. That was an initiative that came from the control board and not necessarily from management at the T or within Mass DOT. So fair or not, I hope you would agree there's a perception that the board today and I don't know whether it's statutory or not, I'm inclined to think not, is less of an activist board. So let me ask you as the Chair, but only speaking on your own behalf, what do you think is that role in terms of initiating whether it's safety, financial, operational, management decisions for the functioning of the T and if the role is okay say so, if there should be changes, say so because that's ultimately our job.

TAYLOR - I appreciate there's a great deal of discussion about this. What I would like to do is describe what the current board is endeavoring to do and others can choose if that is appropriate or not. First of all, it's very important that both the 2019 and the stated, we will start with that, that the number of6444 meetings at the control board was interfering with the T's focus on safety and service delivery. I believe the quote was that it was detrimental to the safety efforts in the T.6461 Therefore, I think the legislature was very wise to reduce the number of meetings. Furthermore, the control board did not have any committees, we now have three committees.

The safety committee looks at public data on the safety events at the T every month. They post those on their bidding materials and they have insisted that they present those to the full board every month. So that shows a safety committee that has month after month made sure that the board as a whole focuses on safety and that those members with the most direct expertise in safety meet and discuss this each month. The workforce committee looks closely at the hiring pattern, the diversity inclusion pattern and the vacancies each month and discusses those. Finance and audit does what most finance and audit committees do. So I think in that regard, the board is working well.

Another point of the shift in the board as it was explained to me when I was interviewed for this position and as it was explained to each of my fellow board members that they relate to me was to inspire more initiative and direct action on the part of management. I think we can all look at the highly successful orange search which was a internally management driven6566 initiative as an example of the kind of practice we should all hope for. So I think there are real strengths in the current order.

STRAUS - Okay, fair enough. So then transitioning if the focus for us, the legislature and6585 likely the next administration is not to the board structure and how6590 it functions, then it sounds like and I'm now putting words in your mouth, we have to look at management for how we got here. I would point to, I think it's in the introductory or executive summary of the FTA report, what drew the FTA into this was the escalating amount of serious safety events, some causing loss of life, serious injury, lost time, fear, and these escalated to the point where the FTA under its jurisdiction initiated the review that resulted in the report. So something wrong happened after 2019, and you've been clear it's not either the control board structure or now the current board structure, so I'm only left with management. So what caused the problem that brought us here today?

TAYLOR - I Joined the board in October. I am much more certain about the kind of actions that are currently being undertaken and that I think should be undertaken in the future that the legislature support that can change the pattern of behavior that we all find deeply regrettable and quite frankly unacceptable.

STRAUS - Is there anything in the FDA report you would disagree with?

TAYLOR - I will start with what I agree with, what I agree with are6714 there specific recommendations6720 for6720 the operating budget and the operating structure at the T? The T in recognition of that report has started a workforce assessment to make sure that they can have the kind of organization that will enhance safety in all departments and create a safety culture. The T has created quality assurance and compliance function which is important to track all of the policies and procedures and the quality issues that the FTA has rightly decided. Where I differ is that I I believe the T has both operating and capital. The level of deferred maintenance decades is massive. The amount of work that we have all learned about during the orange line surge shows how many things need to be done.

They're not preventative maintenance, they are new track, all learned what cologne are description, they dampen the vibration where it matters so that the T can avoid having slowdowns and can run at full speed without causing excess vibrations to the buildings above and around. I think the level of safety improvements that need to be made is massive. When I spoke to the board and the public earlier this spring about my priorities, which I have fully vetted with my other board members. first was safety, that is exactly what the FTA report focuses on and I agree wholeheartedly. The second was that the T pin you an aggressive capital maintenance 80%, $7.5 billion of the current capital program is focused on safety and maintenance, that is what the capital program is designed to do, that is all we needed to do if we are to have the safe and reliable T that this economy needs and6883 deserves.

STRAUS - So both reports, the LaHood and the FTA identifies the same significant problem with regard to this question of capital budget and operations budget and how that has created problems by leaving sometimes the same employees or the same department or division responsible for both things and it has not worked. So if I could and you can have the job of your choice for purposes of answering this6923 question, you can either be the Governor, the Secretary or the GM, what's the first two things you would do in any of those jobs to fix this problem?

TAYLOR - I have trouble doing my own job, thank you, so I'll speak from that. I think the first thing we clearly need to do is the workforce assessment because you are absolutely correct that the same people cannot do two jobs at once, it doesn't work. They have no right to expect it. That is where clarity of recording of safety data, priority of improving the exchanges of data help. So you need more people to do this and you need secure funding to do. I must thank you $260 million, the legislature has given us already plus the $100 million both additional funding capacity and6999 I strongly urge you to support the Governor's request for an additional $200 million dollars including $10 million dollars for an academy to help create the kind of employees7011 we all need if we are to have enough staff to separate the two functions, to rightly observe and staff up to do this job.

STRAUS - Well, the good news is at every time either under the Baker administration or before that under the Patrick administration, we were asked to provide funding for the T. I know sometimes the media doesn't work, commentators, I should say seem to get this wrong, not you, we have provided the aid and even proposed and provided more than that. So I would close with this and and thank you very much. Fortunately, you may not have any of those three jobs either now or come January but you have an important job, so I expect that those things you've identified will be7060 among your priorities and the board members priorities to get this capital operations and workforce issues corrected.

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CRIGHTON - So we just discuss briefly about some of the recent infusions of funding that the legislature has authorized for the T. It wasn't that long ago just in the spring where we had administration here to talk about the transportation bond bill which obviously very proud of and we worked well with administration on that. But during the discussion we did touch upon the $500 million transfer which you had outlined and thank you for those details, those are very helpful. I appreciate that much of that funding went towards safety related measures. To the same end, when legislators, when this committee over the years, long before I joined it has asked administrations what do you need to get the job done? What more can we provide to get the job done?

We've been told, you know, we're all set, we have the funding we need to get the job done, that has remained the case uh recently and the job is not quite done as we've all seen. So while the 500 million towards you know, some of those funds towards safety, you know, may have been the correct action, the fact that we have to continue to go to the administration to say, what can we give you shows us that there is, you know, a lack of sense of urgency in terms of addressing much of these needs. As we look towards the future and looking at a financial cliff facing a $236 million deficit in operating budget next summer which could grow to 406 million by 2024, obviously, we have great concerns.

We appreciate the recent7184 supplemental budget,7185 it's the first time in my time here that we have been asked directly for a specific appropriations and look forward to debating and discussing that in the Legislature. I ask you given your financial expertise and look for your advice here in this this measure, what do you see as the fiscal needs, the financial needs of the T-long term over the next 10 years, 15 years? How big of a deficit are we looking at, how much of the need is there?

TAYLOR - I don't have a number for you today but I will do my best to answer your question in terms of concepts. First, as the FTA has requested, T is commencing in workforce assessment which will talk about the levels of staff and needed not only to separate operating from capital, to have the right kind of safety culture, have the right tide of reporting and asset management, so7251 we know the condition of our features and to make sure we do not overwork or overstress our employees. I think there's no question if we look at what we have learned of late that we've had, we've solved the problem with too much overtime and too many hours per person and that is not good. So we will have the workforce assessment, I think that will begin to tell us what we need on the side. The T has also started an asset management system which we had a special presentation for earlier this year. They are checking and tracking with computers, the status of all of the assets of the T and their condition.

The goal of this is twofold; one, to be able to prioritize the state of the assets and which assets are in most need of repair so that we can fix that which is most likely to break before it brings. We also have asked and that will also give us a sense of the current condition of the current facilities and that I think is the first order of business. After7334 that, there are a great many advocates and others that will propose various expansion projects. Remember I said 80% of the current capital plan is not new and expansion and which is much more interesting to everybody, it's basic7353 maintenance, so there will be that list, the new list already exists, the real problem is getting a handle on what it will take to maintain and update the existing facility and the lack of that is what has caused or largely contributed to a great many of the safety incidents that we all find deplorable.

So we are working on those numbers, when we have those systems in place we will know how many people we need, here's your operating budget for you, what IT systems are needed to track the safety reporting that the FTA calls for, how many people are needed for the quality assurance of capital as well as operating functions and for compliance with all of the numerous regulations or procedures, they are not all regulations, some of them are just you know, making sure everybody does every day all the little things they're supposed to do, that will give us the operating budget. The asset management study will give us the major maintenance projection. I think the request for7425 expansions will simply appear on their own if they are not already on your dock.

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CRIGHTON - Is there a timeline set either internally or7445 by the FDA for either the workforce assessment or the asset management system in7448 terms of completion?

TAYLOR - I don't have it right now, I can check and see if there is.

CRIGHTON - Just express a sense of urgency we feel in the Legislature obviously we're going to need to work together with the T to solve these problems. So, you know, we're ready to act and work with you, with the T to make sure as these are developed that we are planning for the future. But you know, I referenced some projections for the coming fiscal years and in the cliffs we face, it's safe to say now that those are significantly lower than what we would expect given that we need to be the FTA directives, we need to again, after the I know you have to get the workforce assessment done and management but are those smaller. I mean it's safe to assume that they were going to grow significantly?

TAYLOR - It is possible that during fiscal 23 and fiscal 24, that if ridership continues to return who knows what worked for, I mean you can see how many people are working virtually right in this committee, so it's hard to predict that, if their revenue continues and if the T unfortunately continues to have trouble hiring, fiscal 24 may not be have as much of a fiscal problem as it will. The lack of hiring will create very operational problems. I think you are right and I agree with you that going beyond that, there will be a need for the problem is likely to get worse.

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KEENAN - Earlier I asked the question of DPU about double engagement going out facilities and whether what they did match the FTA process. The same kind of question has the board central exception understanding as7580 well have the opportunity to get out and visit various7584 yards by the rails on the subway, the various subway, by the buses meet with workers, has the board had the opportunity to do that?

TAYLOR - I think the board has had less of an opportunity to do that than we, right? Part of that was Covid, part of that kept many of us sitting behind laptops, but I think that as the pandemic seems to be coming down the board will do more. I will also point out that some members of the board have far more experienced than others. Coke has been active on the MBTA advisory board. Got darling as our safety representative, worked for the T for the transit system in Chicago and worked developing safety regulations in Washington. As I said, Mary Beth Mellow had a long career with the FTA and therefore has a history, my history may have been in aviation, her history has been transit. So I think some the board members have more experience than others but I think we are all looking forward to do more of that as it is essential in my opinion. I have been to Wellington, I have been to some of these places, you have to see it and talk to the people to truly understand it.

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KEENAN - I have a question to about the subcommittee format. The subcommittee that relates to the safety of the MBTA safety health and environment subcommittee. I've had an opportunity to look at the minutes of many of the meetings, they generally last about an hour, there's a common focus and that is on safety analysis report, which is that is a safety committee and they spend some time analyzing and reviewing what happened, escalating incidents and also the government center that occurred. I guess given that it is the safety Health Environment of Committee, are there concerns at all that each of those important areas being given proper attention? Is there enough time the board understanding that the past concerned about too much time being taken away from the operations of the system? Is there enough time in the structure for safety people to be given due attention and health and environment issues to be7773 given attention well within this one subcommittee?

TAYLOR - I think that's an open question. I know they have had presentations on some of the environmental7785 issues, they have had presentations with some of the Commissioners. I think it's important to understand that this board truly believes that safety is our highest priority, and if you're going to be very clear that something is the highest priority, then other things are not as great a priority. People may well advocate a different side of this question, I can totally appreciate that but I think this board feels it is very important to be firm in what our highest priority is and to keep as much of the focus there as possible. If other things receive less attention than they might clear unwired.

KEENAN - Given that, would you consider a subcommittee solely for purposes of safety and to create another one for health and environment?

TAYLOR - It's certainly a question worth asking. We've only got seven members and we've only people according to the statute, so many people can only be on so many committees. So it would take some amendments but I7872 think if that is something that people think is important, that is something that can be considered.

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CRIGHTON - It's my understanding that once a month the safety subcommittee is giving a safety data analysis report, is that correct?

TAYLOR - Yes.

CRIGHTON - The FTA findings indicate that this type of reporting is insufficient as the data is presented in terms of safety data instead of safety information. Committee receives raw data that is limited in scope and presented with information that is not prioritized by safety risk, all presented in a way that is easily actionable. The report also observes that the MBTA leadership quote,7925 MBTA leadership cannot effectively priorities resources to address safety concerns without clear safety information. Taylor, I understand you're7936 not a member of the safety subcommittee, I would like to know how you priorities safety risks with that information that is provided to you as a member of the board.

TAYLOR - Well, I will start by saying that I agree with that observation. I think the introduction of the safety reports was a major step. It hadn't happened last of all one has to start somewhere. So that was the beginning and that was why Chair Darling of the safety committee insisted that that data be presented to the full. We now need to take the next step which was identified by the FTA and I think with the additional staffing that people are looking for and with the work of the quality assurance and compliance department, we should begin to get a better sense of how to set those priorities. So, yes, that is work that needs to be done.

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CRIGHTON - I mean do you think the8006 specific information that's being provided to the board is sufficient to make informed and timely decisions or will not be so8013 until some of those actions you just mentioned are taken. Currently, can we assume that the board is getting the information it needs to provide, you know, its oversight function or do we need some more urgent action to make sure that that information is there to ensure accountability?

TAYLOR - Let me say that the board has encouraged the team to move as expeditiously as possible to implement the recommendations of the FTA. We feel a sense of urgency. I tell you exactly how that's going8053 to play out, no, but I promise you, we want that urgency there, we want new reporting part of what the FTA has recommended. I think you will hear a new reporting coming forth from the team in the future and it's part of why we want to be sure that the development of this year's capital, operating budget and the adjustment to the capital program will focus on the priorities that we're discussing this morning. The board wants the new budgets to reflect these concerns. I'd love to move faster but we will move as fast as we can, let me put it that way and we have clear deadlines for the upcoming projects.

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STRAUS - I knew eventually I'd get to an unfair question. I honestly didn't realize you had the the experience in your portfolio of working at Mass port. So I was trying to think in different organization in some sense, but frankly, separate from the aeronautics of the planes themselves, a lot of employees, a lot of people moving through, a lot of equipment and I'm talking everything other than the aircraft, a lot of potentially, you know, tricky equipment, big workforce, a lot of people as I say civilians, so to speak back and forth all day, a lot of different bargaining units, a lot of different operations.

With a board structure and a Chief executive, should we be asking them or are there things you could point to at Mass8172 port as to how safety is prioritized their or as I say everything but the aeronautics itself and if you will, perhaps even include the port operations because they have a lot of activity and I'm sure they have safety in some sense baked in as a priority, not just the thing you do at 10:00 AM every day. So that's the unfair question of the day. Should we look for help from Mass port?

TAYLOR - Difficult, difficult problem. It was working in Mass port that I came to understand boundly believe safety is the highest priority of any transportation entity, period full stop. I mentioned that to someone at the T and they said to me, well maybe you have the luxury to do that and my response is no, it is not a luxury, it is absolutely not. Secondly by all means look there, but remember a couple of things, the Port Authority has roughly 1400 employees of its own, plus or minus, the T is over 5000, needs more, that's the difference. 30 is half unionized, half nonunion unionized has about 10, T is almost 90% unionized, maybe more has over8265 25, they are very different entities.

Mass port as financing mechanism in its trust agreement. Remember it is required by its enabling act to be self supporting, it is not or let's put it this way, no one would8305 tolerate the kind of fees charged that it would take the T to charge for it to be self sufficient. There is a requirement in the funds flow of the trust agreement for the port of that sets aside 2-5% of the replacement costs of its assets every year to fund maintenance. It not only has a structured way of paying for its capital and by the way, it has the airlines8332 which have far deeper pockets or deep enough pockets that help but it has a structural financial mechanism to provide annual cash funding for major need. We could do and learn anything from the port. I would encourage8354 you8354 to look for a way to dedicate structured long term financing for nature.

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TONY HOBBS - MBTA DRIVER - Good morning, Chairman Straus, Chairman Crighton and the members of the committee, I appreciate you hearing me today. My name is Toni Hobbs, I've been an employee with the MBTA for 23 years. I8968 worked in different aspects of the MBTA, I was a bus driver, then I went to the money room. I was a money man for a couple of years then it got privatized and I came back to bus driver and then I just applied for dispatch. So I was there when the FTA was doing their whole investigation and for personal reasons, I came back to driving the bus. So right now, I am a full time bus driver. 23 years on the job, I remember my community, the Boston community for my whole life. So when9004 I first started on the MBTA, absolutely loved it, absolutely loved it. Great job, great employees, co workers, management, great job and as the years go by things change.

In regards to safety issues, that I can look at explain to you my day to day coming to work and when I first started it was a 10 minute circle check on the buses, it is still 10 minutes circle check on the buses even though there's major add on for your circle check in the morning and that's a big part. A circle check is a big part that's when you make sure everything is safe before you pull that bus out of that yard. The other thing is, you know like talking to us employees in regards to what's going on,9068 like the gentleman acts the woman before me, if you know, is there any connection in regards to them talking with the frontline employees, in regards to what's on the board meeting, so whatever, that's a big part because we're the frontline, our boots are on the ground.

It's us that brings them buses out, it's us that make sure that those passengers are safe and my co workers are safe and there's a lot of things that come in between that. So if you don't include us in and I know it's a bigger scale, but if you don't include your front line in, you're always going to have an an issue and I only mean that by you, the board don't know what goes on in the field, we know what goes on in the field and we know what can make a difference out there, with a decision and I have all respect for the board members and all that, but you don't see what we see, you don't address what we address, you don't face what we face out in the day. The littlest thing can make a big difference in regards to safety and regards to, to our day to day work environment and one of those things is like the fare box for instance, our new fare boxes that we just got a couple of years ago, like big safety issue.9164

If you were to ask any bus driver about that fare box, we would have said it's a safety issue. First of all, you can't move the bus while they're loading their card. If you move the bus, you have a chance of them falling or tripping hazard, is as minute as that. Talk to a T worker frontline worker because we have information for the board that will say this can help us out a lot. In regards to trip times, they lowering the trip times. Nearly every new schedule that comes out every season, the trip Times are shortened. Like before, we used to have a whole let's say 459206 minutes, this is just numbers I'm throwing at you, let's say 45 minutes to get from Rago station on the route 23, Rago station to Ashman station, you have 45 minutes, now, you've got 30-25.

How am I supposed to get that bus from Rago to Ashman in 25 to 30 minutes with traffic, with passengers loading their card on the fare boxes,9234 with situations that go on the bus, that is beyond my control. That's a safety9240 issue and you want us to do the speed limit but there's no way if you get on a bus, I can see you getting in your car but if you get on any bus and ride that bus empty from Rago to Ashman station, you're not making it within 25 minutes that they're giving you. So that's the safety issue because we as drivers and I'm not saying we do it, we as drivers is looking at the back end of, if we don't make our trip time, is this going to9275 be a problem? Is this going to be a problem? So, anxiety goes up because you know, you got that radio, they beep you, what's going on?

Why are you getting called? Now that causes anxiety in you and whatnot. There's a lot of things that happens with the front line that the boards don't even think about and for our safety and our health, it's important to have long breaks, we have long9304 breaks, we have like three hour breaks, who needs a9308 three hour break, like, so you got me away from my home from four o'clock in the morning to three o'clock in the afternoon, that's crazy to me, that's absolutely crazy to me. You have us running around town, these are all safety issues because it has to do with my co workers, myself and my co workers health. We are running around like we got swinging on and swing off, we're way down in Kenmore, got to get9346 back to the garage, leave the bus at Kenmore, now, we've got to make our way back to the garage on the T ourselves and make it in time too for our next pullout, absolutely crazy to me. Why it happened that way? I don't know.

STRAUS - So let me ask you in terms of one of the words in the government report that came out recently was communication within the T with management, with frontline workers. So I'm not talking about the investigators who were around from the FTA but when they're not around, if someone in your position sees a safety issue, whatever it is, how clear is it as to what you're supposed to do to either identify or send the message up the chain.

HOBBS - What I'm supposed to do if I9418 see a hazard or whatever safety hazard in anyway, I'm supposed9425 to report it to my management office, the superintendent. Now where it goes from there, I have no clue. Does my management of my supervisors and my superintendent handle it from my aspects? Absolutely. My superintendents great like, absolutely. Supervisors pay attention, they do what they need to do from their, from their level up, I have no clue but what I mean is like there's a lot of little things that turn into huge things in regards to safety and you wouldn't think that it matters but the frontline matters, like it really doesn't matter because again, you being tired, our sickly policy is crazy.

Like you can only be three days in a three month span or it's just so you have an employee that may have issues and we all know this, we all have families, we all have loved ones, we all have moms, dads that may be going through something and they need to call in for a thing but if they calling third day, so now they are so scared of calling the third day, they're going to come into work. Now, they're tired, now they're tired, now you9527 got a major accident at four o'clock in the afternoon because this driver came in tired, you know, like it's not okay for us to be able to say, listen, I can't, I am tires, so we can't take that initiative to say, you know, because we are9544 too scared and trust me, my coworkers are too scared9548 to take the initiative to say I've got to be out today just because of how the policy reads.

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CAPANO - So if you said that your superintendents very responsive, but if you've had like safety issues or some of the issues you mentioned whether it's the fare box or any9587 issue, you report it to the superintendent, and you know, he's responsible to you, but does the problem get corrected? Not not because of anything he may not done but I'm talking about the problem itself, whatever it is?

HOBBS - Certain problems get corrected. But again, I just report it or my co workers just report it and it can either get corrected. Look for my instance with my superintendent report something it gets handled or if I see a pothole in the garage that can do real real bad damage to us, if we go over it with a bus and I reported to my superintendent and whatnot, it's taken care of.9646 So anything higher than that, I don't know but he addresses me in regards to him handling the situation that I have.

CAPANO - Do you9660 know whether there's a safety committee anywhere within the bus drivers that's within your garage like maybe a labor management committee where9665 you can report safety issues to and they get acted on?

HOBBS - I am not aware of that.

CAPANO - Okay, I'm just trying to figure out if there's9678 a safety concern?

HOBBS - It could be there but I'm not aware of it. Again, if I have safety concerns, my co workers have concerns, we report it and it goes upstairs and from there, it's you know, and we just wait to see.

CAPANO - So if there is an issue that some of the drivers may be talking about during break, that, you know, maybe you know, a great suggestion you know, for the T to make your job easier and make it easier for them. Is there a way where you can give that information to somebody and then see9724 if it could be acted on in the future?

HOBBS - Not as of yet. When9733 we have concerns and we are sitting around talking about things that goes on on the T, trip times and all that, we talk about it with each other may be bring it to our union rep and take it from there and see if something could be done about it, but other than that, absolutely none, no sir.

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CRIGHTON - In your opening remarks, you had talked about communication with9775 frontline workers and I think that was the intent of the committee inviting you and others today and we will in the future to make sure that we're hearing from the workers on the ground level, we're doing this hard work day in day out. You had also referenced in your opening remarks, the importance of safety of not only passengers which you care for every9803 day, but also the riders, I don't think we are going to have one without the other. Just hearing your testimony has been so helpful for me to kind of visualize and feel that experience that you go through every day, and you know, I started started to think about the workforce challenges that are, you know, across the system, across the economy, but in particular when you talk about the stresses on, on the drivers, on the people doing the work, you ask who is excited to to go apply for that?

I wonder if some of these conditions are reasons for some of the the shortages and difficulty in hiring. But more importantly, in terms of the overall safety, you talked about fatigue and9877 other issues, has the stresses on the workforce, the lack of drivers made the situation worse? Could you just talk a little bit about some of those challenges, whether it's over time and just being stressed9890 and not having adequate rest?

HOBBS - I drive the 23, which is a heavy route and it's a tough route and due to us not having enough drivers or even, you know, I don't know the scope of it and you know, you guys level of it, but even though the fact of, you know, part time drivers and it just amazes me, we don't have enough drivers and we don't, it shows all day we don't have enough drivers. During Covid, my bus is crowded, I'm the first bus out in the morning, during Covid, on the first bus out in the morning for something that Ashman and my bus is crowded at 4:00 in the morning where I can't pick up past Warren Street. That's ridiculous, that's absolutely ridiculous. We don't have another bus behind me, we're on a time schedule and because we're short drivers, it makes a difference in our workload and because we're short drivers, it makes a difference with the passengers.

You know, you're a passenger, you're waiting for a bus with short drivers, so the trip in front of me is off the line because they have very important things going on at home that they should be able to be out for but that takes their trip off the line. Now, I'm coming behind them 20 minutes later, I'm on time on my time but9986 because their bus is missing, that passage has been waiting over 30 minutes for 23 bus, which is ridiculous. So when I get to that passenger, of course, it's an unhappy9999 passenger and10000 they have every right10001 to be unhappy because they've been out here for10005 a half an hour on10007 a route 23 bus, it doesn't10009 make sense. But again, that's not my fault on their on time, it's the10012 way we don't have enough personnel in order to get to keep these buses moving and that it's a stress level in10021 regards to that is because we get10024 into it with the passengers in regards to, they're mad10028 at us and it's out of our control, it's out10032 of my control that I'm here at this time because this is my time.

So that10040 plays a10041 big part on it,10042 that plays an absolute huge part on it, that we are short drivers. Do I10047 think that10048 honestly, if10049 I was offered this job today, would I take it? Absolutely not, I would not take it.10057 When I took it back in '98, I loved10059 it, loved everything about10061 it. My coworkers, my management team,10063 passengers, everything about10064 it, it's a different world today, it's10068 a different environment that I am working in today.10072 I still love driving but if I was offered this job today, no, I would not take it, it's too much on us. We have10083 looked at, I10084 personally, this is my own10087 opinion, I personally think that were looked at as a10089 little man. Well actually we're the top because we are frontline,10094 our boots are on the ground.

The T sees us first, anything goes wrong with the T, it's10100 us, don't have nothing to do with us. Anything goes on the train derails, I'm a bus driver, train derails, I'm at10109 fault. I'm a bus driver drive who drive trains, but10114 it's us that are at10115 the forefront and it's us that are getting badgered, it's us that are getting assaulted of things10123 that we have10124 no control over. Is it a10127 good work environment? Absolutely not, I10129 wouldn't take the job right now.

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KEENAN - You mentioned that when you get the bus,10200 you do the 10 minutes circle check and that's been in place for quite some time. You reference10205 that it had been10207 in place for quite some time.10209 Is that suggesting10210 that I think there needs to be more than a10212 10 minute circle check?10213

HOBBS - Absolutely.

KEENAN - What would you10215 change in that respect?

HOBBS - In regards to that respect, I would put maybe 5-10 more minutes on it and it's just your circle checking10223 the whole bus first pull out the10226 bus in the morning at 4:00 AM, it's dark out there, it's very dark out10233 there in my garage, and I got10236 to circle check that10237 whole bus; tires, the fare box, the seats10239 inside, the wheelchair straps,10241 circle check the whole bus and call into central, make sure my radio works like, there's a lot10249 involved in it and I just think it's been 10 minutes for 23 years and there's10257 different components to it10258 that got added on. Like we10261 didn't have to do a fare box check when I started, we just got those fare boxes, now there's a whole fare box check, you got to make sure your fare box working. First of all, it takes literally10277 five minutes for the fare box thing to even come up, let's start there. So five minutes of my time is wasted10284 already. So I just think that should10285 be a little more time on it. It's been 23 years10290 and that has not changed.

To10291 me we might miss something10292 because we're in a rush to get out of10295 the garage because10297 we've got to get off the garage on time to get to our destination on time. That's another10303 important piece, like the time you give us to get to10308 our destination or the time that you have10309 us in between trips and here's10310 an important one, not to go off10312 but here's an important one. Like let's say I do a 23, I go get into Rago but I just had a whole issue with two passengers that central had to be called, police10325 had to come to get them off the bus and whatnot. Now, I am at Rago,10330 my10330 next trip is that10331 one o'clock, I get to Rago at 12 57, I have to put that bus out at10338 one o'clock, there's10339 no time for me to get off my bus and say let me breathe a minute, there's no time for that.

10347 That puts stress on you, so10348 when I go down to pick up the next passenger, the first10352 passenger that gets on with a10354 problem, it's going to be a problem10355 because I wasn't able to,10357 you10357 know, just10358 and you don't want to say, oh I need EPA because you'll be calling EPA for every, you think what's your drivers now,10383 everybody will be down10384 in the closet. You just want to breathe like that's what I don't think10390 that T understand that, we are the front line, you want to be able to breathe when you go through a10395 situation and whatnot and that's safety because if I get back on the bus, that could be a safety problem.10402 You know what I'm saying?

KEENAN - When you do the 1010406 minute circle check, if you observe something that you believe10410 to be a10411 safety issue that would10413 impact your safety or the safety of riders or the10418 safety of the public that interacts with the bus. What do you do?

HOBBS - You write it up,10424 you ride the bus up.10426 You don't take that10427 bus out. Whatever is the problem,10428 if you have10429 bald tires or whatever10430 the problem is, you10431 write the bus up, the windshield wipers don't work, the horn don't10435 work, something don't work the horn is important.

10439 KEENAN - Do they have a10440 substitute bus ready for you in cases such as10443 that?

HOBBS - No, no, you go get another10445 bus to10446 circle check that bus.

KEENAN - And it's your responsibility to make that determination of whether that10450 buses safe to go on the road.

HOBBS - Yes.

KEENAN10454 -10454 And10454 have you been questioned on that decision at10456 any point in your career?

HOBBS - Never.

10460 KEENAN - So they refer10461 to you in those cases?

HOBBS - Yes, I'm trained to do a circle10465 check.10465 They train me very well to do a circle10468 check. I've been doing it for 23 years. So10471 if I see the tires are worn off, or if the horns10474 not working,10475 or the windshield10477 wipers are not working and10479 whatnot, I write the bus up, bus number 18/27 windshield wipers don't work whatever whatever10483 and I put it10484 in the the work line and I leave10487 it there tagged. I10488 tag it, I go10490 get another bus and I10493 got a circle check that bus, so there can be times I can10497 come out and then circle10498 check three buses10499 and the fourth bus10500 is the bus that I am taking out but that's the safety of10504 it all before we pull it out for10507 the garage for our passengers and10510 my safety.

KEENAN - Overall, how10511 would you describe the safety culture at the MBTA particularly area that you work? And by that, I mean are you encouraged to report10521 these things? Do10522 you feel comfortable doing10523 them, reporting them? Do you feel that they are probably addressed and that you get feedback on it saying that10532 that's been taken care of? How would10534 you describe your overall safety culture from your perspective?

HOBBS - At my garage, I feel very comfortable with my10539 supervisory staff and my superintendent10540 staff of me being10541 able to talk with them and if something is going on10546 or reporting anything. The maintenance staff, I don't have a problem from10551 the maintenance10552 staff, there's a lot of things I will report and I never have a problem from the maintenance staff, from the bus10561 maintenance department, they take it and handle it or they get me another10568 bus themselves or whether never had a problem with them.10570 So at my garage, I can't say it anywhere else, but my garage is fully capable of, I10578 don't have no worries10579 in telling somebody something is wrong.

KEENAN - As you have moved through the system in a couple of different capacities you have described, do you10591 believe that it's the same elsewhere or have you heard from other people that have come into your garage and glad I'm here because this garage didn't work well or10601 I was I don't10602 know if there's a lot of transferring between rail and bus?

HOBBS - Right, it's a whole different animal. Rail and buses is dealing with things that I would never10608 see, they are handling things10609 that I10610 would never be aware of, you know? So their job is way10614 different from mine but in regards10618 to10618 my co workers, my bus driver, co workers or10621 even in regards to10622 like the green line or the orange line because I have10628 friends all over the system, they'll10630 complain about how certain things10632 are in their department, but you know, I really don't10636 understand the department10637 because I'm a10638 bus driver, I'm not a10640 train driver, trolley driver but I get what they mean in regards to, you know, safety and10647 getting in trouble for something that is beyond their10650 control, and that's10651 the only thing.10652

Like some things are just10653 beyond10653 our control and10654 I'm glad you let me testify here because I know you said thank you for testifying,10662 but I'm glad because somebody's listening, like somebody heard somebody from the front line and that's very important to us, to all my co workers, trust me it is very important, so I appreciate that much. With that, I just think that this should be more10682 of us involved, even if like you said in the speaker with10686 the woman before me, she had conversation with us or addressed us in any way and because of Covid and she said, because of Covid, like we haven't had, we just need you guys to listen to us and here us and hear from us because it's different, like I said, a bus driver, but I just went to dispatch training.

So on a10716 bus,10717 I'm driving a bus and I'm mad with dispatch, you know, I got a10723 lot of things to say about10725 dispatch, they don't listen10728 to me, whatever, whatever until I10732 got into the beast, until I was up there and then I see it from10737 a different level and say, wow, like I get it now. I understand how I may sit on a bus as a bus driver thinking dispatch ain't doing their job but no, there's a10747 lot going on up here. You got five people in10749 the queue. So, being in10750 different positions, you see how it affects. I10753 see how me calling in10755 sick one day10756 affects the whole system. You don't see that until you get up to dispatch10761 and10762 you have to handle that and cover that. You see it then but10767 there's a whole10768 component to what we don't see as10771 transit, as frontline workers because they don't share10773 with us or they don't ask10775 us.

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KERANS - I'm wondering in the wake of all that is going on, have they come to10812 you whether at your garage or whether10814 in an email to all employees10825 to say you're reading a lot,10829 we know you're on the front10834 lines of these horrific10835 incidents and even if as you said, you're not a T driver, but you're hearing it, I'm sure every time you're10845 on the bus you're hearing conversations10849 about, you know, thank God we're not on the Orange line. Have they come to you as employees10856 to say we10858 want you to10859 know we are troubled by this, we are working at it, here is what we would like you to know and please you tell10869 us what we need to know? Anything like that? Any kind of dialogue reaching out, anything?

HOBBS - Yes, there's been dialogue reaching out in regards to,10912 you know, what's10913 going on and they appreciate us as employees and everything. In10920 regards to what can we add to it? Not to my knowledge, I have never seen anything to my knowledge of. So I'm not saying it's not out there, I just haven't seen it.10936 In regards to asking questions on to10938 how I feel about it or10940 what's my input on it, but I've seen memos in10943 regards to10944 what we're going through10945 and what happens on the green line or what happens on the Orange line and they stand behind us10954 and everything. So I do10955 see that, as far as you know what my perspective of is,10959 no I've never.10960 Again, I don't want to throw nobody under the bus in regards to it. My supervisor team is10968 great, my superintendents great, it's just knowledge from us, from a frontline worker, that's all.

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JEB MASTANDREA - MACHINIST UNION LOCAL 264 BOSTON - Good afternoon, everybody. Thank you for inviting me. My name is Jeb Mastandrea, I am President of machinist union Local11054 264 Boston.11055 I work as an outside machinists at11059 the MBTA.11060 When I say an11061 outside machinists, what my job consists11062 of is we work on all the facilities, all of the dewatering pumps down in11067 the tunnels,11068 so you're talking system wide as far North as11071 Lynn down to Quincy bus garage as well. So we work11074 also on all the compressors, the train lifts, the bus lifts, garage doors, exhaust fans,11079 the tub jet11080 engines down in the South Boston power that help11083 provide back up power to11086 the current system if the system goes down on the grid that also provides power back to the grid and that's down in11094 south Boston.

In regards11096 to safety, I'll say from my11098 perspective it's more of a staffing level issue.11102 We currently in my position as outside11104 machinists like11105 I said, we cover all that11107 work and all the11108 facilities, nine bus garages, seven11109 train facilities as well, we have 11 employees. I find it very challenging and the11113 fact that11116 we11116 don't have time to even do11119 preventive maintenance because we spend our days putting out what we call in the business just but no fires. We don't have time to do things11129 to prevent things from happening. We're just reactionary, which is troubling to me as a union rep and as you know a worker itself, you know the end of the day,11141 we had a new11142 hire start the other day,11145 I told him he came in, make sure you go home with all these and your11150 toes, it's a good day and obviously the importance of the facilities getting the trains and the buses out there onto the11157 roads in good working order11158 is paramount to make11160 sure that the safety of the riders is also taken care11162 of.

Other than that, again,11163 it's just manpower issues to me, the funding has slowly dried up,11166 we used to have in my position probably 20 years ago, 35 machinists around11173 the clock. As11174 I said, we have 11, two on the night shift, nine11178 guys on the11179 day shift and we just physically can't cover it. What troubles me most is is that they basically11186 say we'll get it11188 done or we'll just call it a contractor.11190

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CRIGHTON11205 -11205 You11205 talked about the staffing issue, that's been a great deal11208 on that throughout this oversight hearing process, but11211 also,11212 you know, in terms of the infrastructure that exists,11215 looking back at the 2019 report, there11218 was evidence of employees noticing, you know, certain11220 bolts being you, I forget what particular part this was, that11223 was not supposed11224 to be11225 for that particular machine or piece of infrastructure and you know, continuing to, you know, run it up the flagpole, trying to get attention to it and just not being heard and11235 eventually kind of just giving up.

So while there is a staffing component to it, there11245 seems to be a communication component also, I11249 mean just raising the issue and having11251 not be addressed, but also I imagine11253 if you have to do that so many times you just stop raising the issue and when you're dealing with equipment that11260 is carrying around thousands of people every day in one small device can11263 lead to serious,11264 tragic consequences. Can you just describe to me how that line of communication works and if you do see that as a major impediment providing safe service?

MASTANDREA - I wouldn't11272 say it's a major impediment because generally people do listen whether or not it gets addressed in11277 terms of coming back to us like we took care of this problem and we did address so by doing this, it there's never anything communicated back to the person from my view, when11291 you report a problem, it's11292 never communicated back that we rectified the situation, it's11295 all set, it's just sort11296 of well, I reported it, see what happens. A lot of times, I will tell you, I11301 personally have reported stuff through the hotline11303 and other instances and three years later, it's still a problem, which is11307 frustrating on our end because again, safety is paramount, not11310 only myself, you11311 know, I have to provide for my family, but the11314 workers in11315 the system and11316 the public.

CRIGHTON - It seems to be and but you're11346 not11346 necessarily knowing11348 where that resolved, not getting the feedback.

MASTANDREA11351 -11351 Again,11351 it goes back to11353 a11353 staffing levels. We only have11354 a certain amount of electricians,11355 pipe fitters or machinists, They just don't have the11358 people to get everything done.11359 It's impossible.

STRAUS - I just wanted to explore with11365 you first, a little11366 bit the importance of preventative maintenance and11368 how11369 you see11370 it from a machinist staff standpoint. One of the points that is identified11376 in the FTA report, is that certain kinds of11381 work would be in a green category? I guess the analogy11385 I'll try if, if you11388 agree is, you may have a manufacturer's recommendation on your car to change the oil11393 filter11393 5000 miles, if you go 5010 miles, nothing happens but if you don't replace it, ultimately, you might get an oil light or an overheating, maybe11407 that's yellow11408 and then if the either11410 the engine uh,11411 gets on fire or the car11414 doesn't work, that would be red.11416 It11417 sounds like, and11418 give me your observations, if you will, when you use11421 the word, we're reactive, it sounds like the work that the machinists do is never11427 rarely the preventative maintenance in the green and11430 yellow category,11431 but the11433 red light and that's why you use the word11438 reactive. So by definition, that's no longer preventative maintenance,11441 so maybe if that helps?

MASTANDREA - I would say probably 90% of the11446 work that11447 we do because of11449 the staff level is reactive in terms of the PMS, like with I'll use pumps in11455 the tunnels, for example, you know, those11457 company requirements for like a Gorman rough11460 pump, they have daily, weekly monthly, semiannual, annual11464 checks or fixes11465 or oil changes, etc11466 that you need to do,11468 but with11470 a staff of nine guys and 106 individual pumps across the system, you can't physically do daily, weekly, monthly checks. So we might do annual or semiannual inspections, repairs, etc. or if there's a fire,11486 so to speak, we fix it then11491 and there.

STRAUS - So would it be a fair observation and the pumps is one example and just so the public understands,11498 there's11498 water infiltration, the blue line11500 tunnel, we have it in the11502 big dig. It's a daily thing that11505 water needs to be pumped out given where we are but in the case that you're describing, are you saying that11512 there aren't enough machinists to even11515 attempt to do the scheduled preventive maintenance11518 for pumps as one type of equipment,11521 but it sounds like11524 there's a11526 whole array of things that your group is responsible for?

MASTANDREA - I have a report11531 that we did in just amongst our group, that's roughly 10 years old, I don't know the exact date, but at11538 the time when there was 13 machinists it was roughly, let's call it 1300 man hours per11543 week just on preventive maintenance, not11544 putting out fire. So at the time, I think11548 the math11549 was about 95 a half hours of preventive maintenance work required by the factory of whatever piece of machinery you're11555 working on to get done. So again, you have one person, 95 and a half hours per week,11563 you can't do it, it's impossible. So11565 this again goes back to the staffing with what we're doing.

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CRIGHTON - What level would you need to and I11582 know this, you know, workforce assessments going on other11585 things that that is now doing as a result of11589 these the FTA report and the safety incidents but11591 in your experience, what would that11592 preventive maintenance be?

MASTANDREA - Just since I personally have been at the T and in my current job when I bid the job because I came out11602 of the Everett main repair facility, I bid the job, there was only11606 five guys as outside machinists, they went to 11 when I went out and11609 we went to a high number11611 of 13 and through guys retiring, we had an unfortunate11613 person passed away, et cetera, we're at that 11. The number I was told11619 back in the late11621 90s, early 2000s was there was11623 37 of us covering the system, which is to me seems like a11627 pretty accurate number based upon the locations and all the11631 required work. So I can't tell you exactly what11634 that number should be, I'm not the numbers guy, I just go spin wrenches and fix11640 stuff at work an the number of stuff, I'm not11642 exactly sure of.

11643 CRIGHTON - You know that, you know, I don't need an exact11646 number and you are keeping the system running11649 you doing much more than11650 spinning wrenches. But, as11653 you know, we continue to11654 talk about staffing and, you know, it's11656 it's been pointed back11658 to, you know, the pandemic and the workforce challenges across the system. We heard a number of, you know,11665 percentages and statistics from Chair Taylor11668 about other transit agencies11669 and their staffing woes as well but it seems like, you know, you've had a long career there that this is not something that11679 is new that we need11680 to address, this is something that's11681 been there for quite some time.

11683 MASTANDREA - We've been arguing the point11685 that, you know, you want to get stuff fixed. You need to have more people for, as I said, I've been here 12 years, I've been outside 10 since I've come outside,11693 you know, I've been a steward and then I11696 got elected executive board. and then the11698 president. I've advocated for more workers, not11699 for any other reason than to provide, I can tell my my bosses all the time we're here to do11706 the work, provide us11707 with the tools we need and it will get done,11710 that's all we try to do.11711

STRAUS - Just so the11712 public and others understand the terminology,11714 outside means not outside of the T,11716 it means?

MASTANDREA - System wide.

STRAUS - Outside is a11721 T term for the kind of job you do cover, everything11727 that?

MASTANDREA - Any bus garage,11730 any train facility,11731 as I said down in the subway tunnels11736 themselves, we do go to the power substations, the11740 South Boston jet, so there's many different things that just we cover.

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KEENAN11757 -11757 Staffing11757 obviously11757 has11757 been11757 identified pretty consistently throughout today's hearing as being an issue that has to be addressed. We hear an awful lot broader sense about supply issues in your work particular as a machinist. Have there been issues with11775 getting parts11776 and if so, has that impacted your ability to11780 do your jobs relative to safety?

MASTANDREA - In a few instances, there certainly has been supply chain issues, for example, we fix and repair train and bus11789 lifts, a lot of those, unfortunately, those companies are not in this country, so they have to wait upwards of six weeks sometimes11796 to get11797 basic parts, because just is what it is11801 at this particular moment. There's other times if I need a part, the talented11804 machinists at Everett machine job can make us parts just they've done for the11810 trains, when there's been issues they've done that, but for the most part yes there has been supply chain11815 issues dealing with that and it's sort of just got unfortunately wait.

KEENAN - In absence11820 of the broader supply chain issues, how about11824 within the MBTA itself, the process for timely obtaining necessary parts and11828 if that's working that's great for safety11833 and the safety?

11834 MASTANDREA - My perspective and11835 again I have nothing to do with being able to11838 order my parts, I basically say to11840 my boss, this is what we need etcetera, so they put the order in and sometimes it seems to me is that there's a bit11849 of a convoluted process to make that happen, this person says oh you can get it cheaper here or you can get it cheaper here with no thought given to the fact that for example, this11858 bus lift needs to be fixed in order to fix the bus to make pullouts11863 as Toni the bus11864 driver said so they can get out on11867 the road to pick up the11868 passengers, there's no thought given to that in terms11870 of getting a part faster. Again that's my perspective.

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CAPANO - If there were 30-37 workers, you know, in the11894 past and there's 1111895 now, I imagine there's contractors doing somewhere right outside vendors?

MASTANDREA - Well, that's a story for another day.

CAPANO - So if that's the case, I mean,11910 how does that impact safety? Like were they expected to, would they be subject to the same safety protocols and whatever parts they are working on11920 or whatever they're doing, are those inspected in11924 the same way or is it a different procedure for work11929 that comes in from outside vendors or is it11933 the same?

MASTANDREA11935 -11935 From11935 my perspective, I'll give you an example. So riverside car house where they keep the trains out on by Cleveland circle, they had a contractor come in and replace all the doors11945 which we work on the garage11947 doors. So, well, two months after they were installed, every other day, we were getting a call that getting technical here, but11956 there's a drive chain on the door that11958 helps the springs11959 to pull the way to the door up, the keys were falling11962 out so the doors wouldn't open or the key would fall out11965 of the sprocket on the drive part of the11969 motor.11969 So the door could11970 potentially just drop and hit someone because from what we could tell, no11974 one would go out and actually check the work that11977 was done by the contractor. It was11979 just like, okay, here's your contract, go do the work and just I don't want to11983 see what happens and then we're ultimately responsible to go out there and make sure that they are done right and fixed. That's where I personally have seen.

CAPANO - So my point is, if I'm11995 right is that happens a lot11998 with companies that contract11999 out their maintenance, you end up doing some of12003 the work that was contracted out, plus12005 the work you're doing originally?

MASTANDREA - It happens in my opinion, far too much because you lose ownership of the job being done, if you've got a contractor and that's12015 just there. Again, my12016 opinion to make a12017 dollar as opposed to, you know, I'm here at12019 the T, again, I12020 want to have a12021 career provide for my family, but I do,12023 I12023 am a proud MBTA worker at the end of the day and if12026 that door12027 falls on someone and that's obviously a problem and12031 I don't want that to happen12032 to anybody that I work with. I don't want that happening to myself, you know,12035 so the oversight or lack of a better term in and the contractors end of things this again, maybe I'm wrong,12043 but I've never seen jobs12044 that they've done,12045 get checked by anybody and we're the ones that get blamed when riverside Carlos is12049 calling the machinist every three days because a different door is falling apart like real quick.

With an example, when we went to riverside for12057 a particular job, they said it was door three and obviously there's two ends12062 to the garage, so12063 there's North and South. My co worker and I noticed a key which is a quarter inch wide, about two12069 inch long piece of metal that12071 goes into a key way that drives the sprocket, so we noticed it was on the ground and I12076 said to the former over here to fix the door and I got the key, I12079 found it on the ground. I said can you kill the 600 overhead power which they do for us out of safety,12085 so we went up on the left12087 and come to find out it was actually the door on the other end that had12090 actually been called in, we just happened to notice because when we go into the garage, we just inherently notice12096 these things because we12097 know what to look for. So that's why it's again good to keep work in house in mind.

CAPANO - When they send the workout. Is it done for12105 capacity reasons or cost?

MASTANDREA - I'm told so many different excuses over the years that you know, what I'm constantly told and I hate12114 to hear is that we don't have the manpower, then why am I as a worker advocating for the manpower and you as the boss, not12121 advocating for the12122 worker. Again, maybe I'm speaking out of school here, but to me it's easier to12126 give out a contract than it is to12128 go and hire 5-6 people.

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KERANS - Apologies to everyone if this is not the right12150 gentleman for me to12151 ask this of but who is in charge12155 of the overall schedule of maintenance and12159 who's12160 checking on these contractors? It must be very frustrating for you and your colleagues who are there12169 to do the maintenance and it's kind12175 of this mysterious function and it's on a contract, is there someone, how could we find that out?12184

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MASTANDREA - You might12188 get eight fingers pointed in different directions if that question gets asked12195 to a manager12196 at the T, I12197 don't know who ultimately make those calls, they don't share very12201 much information in terms12202 of that because in12204 our contract, for example, there are particular language12206 in there that says12207 you should talk to the Union12210 prior to contracting out work and that doesn't ever really get followed, which is again, another frustrating thing. But sticking with that, I don't ultimately know who12218 is at the top of the chain for12221 who makes these decisions.

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