2023-10-11 00:00:00 - Joint Committee on Revenue
2023-10-11 00:00:00 - Joint Committee on Revenue
(Part 2 of 2)
SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
SPEAKER1 - Next is James Shreber and Mark Cavanaugh from the Mass Association of Realtors. Are
you Marks online?
MARK KAVANAGH - MASSACHUSETTS ASSOCIATION OF REALTORS - HB 2747 - SB 1771 - Good morning, Chairs Cusack, Moran and members of the committee. Thank you so much for the opportunity to testify before you today. My name is Mark Kavanagh, I serve as government affairs committee chair for the Massachusetts Association of Realtors. We're a volunteer membership organization with more than 26,000 members statewide. We staunchly oppose taxing homes because as proposed in several Bills on today's46 agenda, what we find is that that is contrary to what we're trying to do with affordability. Realtors are on the front lines of our state's housing crisis, just about everyone here has spoken thus far on the housing crisis. We absolutely applaud the legislature for taking important steps to address the crisis with the recently enacted housing choices,67 MBTA communities, and tax relief laws. The71 latter which was enacted just days ago includes many provisions targeting housing development, affordability, and stability, creating new taxes, especially on housing. In the wake of that historic Bill would move the state backwards. Transfer attacks will harm our communities, they are unfair, they tax roughly 2.5% of the population that buys or sells a home each year, and they either tax people trying to buy new homes and raising the barrier to enter those towns, or they strip homeowners of equity.
For every $1000 increase in the price of a home, 1727 Massachusetts residents are priced out where everyone again has spoken on affordability here, this does exactly the opposite of that pricing people out. As a result, taxing homes increases income stratification, it constrains diversity and inclusivity, and it enforces pre existing patterns of de facto segregation. Carve outs129 such as the ones proposed in several of today's131 Bills do little to help, especially in the expensive communities seeking this unprecedented taxing authority. I heard the Representatives from Concord mentioned that they would pull in about a 1,000,005, and what they said was the average price a little over a 1,000,005 right now. So we're talking about potentially buying one unit with what is pulled in. That is definitely a drop in the bucket compared to the issues here. All that the thresholds would do was increase competition for the homes that were priced below those numbers. In preparing for this hearing, we did want to better understand why these seemingly very different municipalities are all seeking the same unprecedented taxing authority.
They range176 from some of the biggest densest cities to small, sparse suburbs, half of the towns average182 upholstery, 1.3 units per acre, while Boston, Cambridge, and Somerville all hover around 30 units per acre. They also vary widely in their demonstrated commitment to building affordable housing.194 Boston is the state's leader with a subsidized housing inventory of over 20% while others like Chatham and Arlington are below 6% and two, Touro and Wealth fleet are below 3%. These municipalities also vary widely in their commitment to using the Community Preservation Act to fund affordable housing. Cambridge is a state leader yet only three other communities devote more217 than 50% of their CPA funds to housing, four fund housing below the statewide average of 33%. In Concord, housing is the lowest line item, funded at 60% less than historic preservation, and 137% below open space and recreation. Four of the communities have not enacted the full allowable property tax surcharge, foregoing a combined $145,000,000 in the last two years alone in local revenues and state matching funds. These communities are far from maximizing available funding resources, and in our opinion, taxing a small percentage of the population for the gain of an entire community sets a bad precedent. Thank you.
JONATHAN SCHREIBER - MASSACHUSETTS ASSOCIATION OF REALTORS - HB 2747 - SB 1771 - My name is Jonathan Schreiber, I'm council263 at MAR. So in looking at these various communities, three similarities emerged; all the communities are fairly wealthy with household incomes of 11% above the state median, all have very high home values averaging 135% higher than the state single family median. However, they also have amongst the lowest tax rates averaging 30% lower than the state average. The 10 towns seeking to tax homes today include five of the lowest 25 municipal tax rates in the state,296 and eight of the lowest 70 tax rates. These towns have existing mechanisms to generate more tax revenue, but302 have chosen not to. The current housing crisis does not derive from a lack of funding, but rather a lack of housing production. The state has a severe supply and demand problem driven by decades of NIMBYism. Statewide monthly housing inventory has dropped 83% over the last 15 years, while population has increased 9% resulting in a 64% increase in home prices. At the same time, housing production for the last 15 years is 60% where it was in the 1980s. Meanwhile, housing production cost driven largely by onerous regulatory structures, which are especially acute in many of the towns requesting these taxes, have made Massachusetts one of the least affordable states.
The cost of land has drastically inflated. In Massachusetts, it currently stand at $102,000 per acre, four times the average in the contiguous 48 States, this escalates to over $1,500,000 per acre in Boston.359 Housing production plans, state approved studies laying out strategies363 for planning and developing affordable housing confirm the data. Six of the communities requesting taxes have recent housing production plans, each tell a similar story, significant declines in housing production over the last 50 years have resulted in less efficient, less climate friendly, and expensive to maintain housing stock. For example, in Arlington, 50% of homes were built before 1939, the housing production plans also explain how zoning has limited production to a smattering of large single family homes rather than multi family or starter home style districts. For example, between 2016 and 2020, Concord issued 205 housing permits, just two403 of those permits were for units in multifamily buildings. Zoning plays a significant role in that stat as 90% of Concord allows exclusively single family homes by right and 50% require a gargantuan 1.8 acre lot size minimum. The plans include recommended zoning reforms, but few have been adopted. In some, municipalities do not need unprecedented taxing authority, instead, they need to devote available funds, maximize existing programs and reform their zoning to allow for more housing production. We urge you to oppose transfer taxes. Thank you for the opportunity testify on these Bills. We've also submitted supplemental written testimony, and we'll welcome the opportunity to discuss this issue further. SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
SPEAKER1 - Thank you, Jonathan. Any comments or questions from the committee? Seeing on. Thank you. I will now hear from the Greater Boston Rail State Board. Patricia Bummer, Definite Fields in person, and, Keith Franco virtually.
PATRICIA BAUMER - GREATER BOSTON REAL ESTATE BOARD - HB 2747 - SB 1771 - Chair Moran, Chairman Cusack and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify. My name is Patricia Baumer, and I am director of government affairs for the Greater Boston Real Estate Board. Unfortunately, our Chairman George Pete Arco had to drop off, but we will be submitting some early remarks, so I will try to be brief in my remarks, but we have brought with us, a stellar professional, she is a volunteer, she is a chairman of government affairs, and she could probably speak more eloquently to the residential side, in terms challenges to the505 marketplace. But because we are a multifaceted organization, we represent509 five distinct real estate organizations, including multifamily residential and commercial. I think it's important that we recognize that a real estate transfer tax, and it is a tax, it is not a523 fee will also impact small businesses because this also would capture commercial, and if anybody takes a walk around the city of Austin, you'll see that the vacancy rate in the city of Austin is quite high. A lot of maybe the A class properties, they are still able to attract tenants, but you've got a lot of B and C, tenants that are struggling with the vacancy rate. The interest rates are up, equity markets are tightening, it's unfortunate the folks that could speak to it weren't able to be here today, but we'll be happy to meet the committee and follow-up.
All you have to do is take a walk around and look at how the commercial real estate industry is suffering. I think566 it's easy to kind of paint a broad brush on the industry and say everybody's doing just fine, but I think it's important that we remember that there's a lot of small businesses in those buildings, and a lot of that costs will be be passed on to them. So I think it's important that we understand that when we're talking about attacks and it's a tax,584 that this encompasses all segments of the real estate which we represent. At real estate transfer tax, there's a reason why the legislature in its wisdom, when they created the community preservation act, deciding not to do a transfer tax, and instead, they did the community preservation act. The community preservation act is actually ingenious in the way that it was created. A real estate transfer tax is an unstable source of revenue, the market goes up and the market goes down. So our colleagues here from Cambridge we're alluding to the fact that maybe the amount of transaction came down, and that's very similar in what we're seeing in the City of Boston, in terms of the amount of real estate that's transacted in the city of Boston, particularly when it comes to626 commercial office towns. So I think628 it's important that people understand that times have changed, the pandemic has really changed the world that's also changed the real estate industry, and I think it's important that we take a look at the full picture and what are the implications? What are the unintended consequences for something like this? I would also mention to you that, we also partnered with, Evan Horowitz at the State Center for Public Policy Analysis. We wanted to take a653 look at how the community preservation act was being used and we're happy to provide a copy to the committee.
What we found was communities, some communities are not leveraging up to 10%, they are statutorily required with the community preservation act to allocate up to 10% for affordable housing, and they're not. The other concern that we have is a lot of the housing trusts are sort of a black hole, so there's no transparency in terms of how the681 housing trusts are being utilized and then we also find that communities are688 prioritizing open space preservation and, particularly in suburbs, when it comes to the production of affordable housing. So I do think that it's important that this legislative body takes a look at particularly the issue of transparency with housing trust when we're thinking about additional authorities, before we go ahead and provide communities, additional taxing authority, I think we need to look at the tools that we have. I think it's a fair thing, the community preservation has been in place for 20 years, but it is still720 a good tool, and the legislature was right when similar debate occurred in the 1990s, we want to do a sales tax on real estate homes, you know, should we do that or the community preservation act? So I think this body should be proud of the fact that they did the community preservation, we, as an organization supported the passage of that legislation because we think it's a fair mechanism to pay for affordable housing but we would just encourage the committee to reject any potential sales tax on homes. So, with that, I will provide written comments about some of the commercial aspects to757 the committee, I am happy to meet with SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
folks.
both and I would like to turn it over to Daphne Fields. As I mentioned, Daphne is 1 of our volunteers, and she is, the chair of our friend from
SPEAKER5 - Hello.
DAPHNA FIELDS - GREATER BOSTON REAL ESTATE BOARD - HB 2747 - SB 1771 - Thank you for, being here today. I really appreciate771 to the Chairs and the members of the committee. Again, I'm Daphna Fields, and I am very proud to sit here today, first time testifying. Just a little bit nervous, but I'll get over it. I came without notes and without statistics, I want to just tell you a little bit about my story if I may. I have been in real estate for 23 years, I love this industry, this is an industry that is all about the American dream because of the fact that799 we are all about the American dream. We agree801 with everyone that sit here today and testify and focus about their plans and their beliefs and the affordability of homes. The fact is, however, that the solution that is being brought forth today is not the correct solution,817 it is actually going to work against us. I don't have to tell you that right now, the real estate industry is actually hurting, I don't know, the gentleman that sat here just a few minutes ago said that we're doing fine, we are not. Sellers are having a very tough time deciding whether or not they can list their home for sale because they know that they have very little to choose from in looking for their next home. They also know that they would be giving up a lower interest rate and would have to then take on additional higher costs when they move.
We are trying to counsel people like that and make sure that they see opportunities so that we actually help mobility rather than stop it. We are actually dealing right now with a complete gridlock because buyers don't have anything to buy as sellers are holding down and don't want to move again for867 financial reasons. It is very easy to sit here and assume that everyone in real estate, whether those of us who work in it or who own homes have plenty of money.879 Even those who may881 be fortunate enough to own a home in the $2,000,000 range, I don't have to tell you how little of that can buy888 today in Massachusetts, especially in some communities. These homeowners also894 may I remind you are the very same people at one point struggled to become homeowners. They have managed to save, to work hard to finally buy their dream, and now years later, after they probably also used a lot of912 the money that they have in the equity of their home to pay for medical needs, for education, for upkeep on their home, perhaps a little new roof or paint job or landscaping or that, I928 don't know, garage door that needs to be changed, very, very quickly that equity becomes next to nothing. When you then also have to take into account what they need to buy and the costs associated with a move, not only does it hurt the home seller, ultimately, those costs move to the buyer.
We are going to make a difficult situation worse by making it even more expensive for buyers to afford to buy homes where the sellers know I will have additional cost, I have to somehow to pay for it. They're going to raise the cost of the house, and the buyer will pay for it. So you might966 say, okay, well, if the buyer can afford a968 $2,000,000 home, what's the problem? Well, it is a problem because if the seller doesn't sell because of it or the buyer doesn't buy because of it, that's again less mobility there. I want to also remind you that this is not just about the housing industry, it's about the industries of the housing industries touch. Housing is part of our economic makeup, right? Every996 move will include the mortgage professional, the painter, the mover, the furniture seller, the inspector, hopefully the realtor, there are a lot of people who are relying on mobility in order to us have that engine in our economy. If we make it even more difficult, you're actually going to end up hurting the painter, the furniture mover and the cleaner because they have less work. How are we helping them get into the American dream? I came to this country when I was 16 with my parents from Israel, I might add, I'm a proud Israeli American, I believe in the American dream. My father is now 90 years old, he is using the fact that he was able to invest in the real estate of the American dream so that he can afford his very well earned retirement after being a Holocaust survivor. The very high cost of living doesn't end when you sell a home, in many cases, it starts. Please state that into account, and I'd really thank you for your time. SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
SPEAKER1 - Thank you very much. Any comments or questions from the committee?
Representative Paulina?
SPEAKER6 - That's a good question.
When how
REP PAULINO - These transfers transfer fee, if the buyer is paying, can affect the qualifications for those buyers. We know in Massachusetts, we have a lower threshold in regards to what can be categorized as a high cost mortgage. It can make that transaction illegal or not be able to be endorsed, but in, agency law, which can create a problem for the buyer in which he would have to pay 2 or 3% more to obtain finance to purchase the same property. Based on your experience, how implementing this fee can affect the qualification of the loan can affect the accessibility of housing?
FIELDS - Well, you're absolutely right, that is the point I was trying to make, I thank you for that insight. You know, again, when something costs a certain amount, someone has to pay for it, right? And when a seller sells their home and there are costs that are associated, ultimately, whatever the cost is, just the cost of the house, the buyer is the one that's bringing the money to the table, the buyer is the one that is paying for the costs that are associated with the sale with that transaction. So if we continue to allow the unbelievable expensive cost of homeownership in this state to continue to be a deterrent or a difficulty for buyers to enter, this, I believe, will only make it worse, for exactly the points that you made with alternative. SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
Thank
SPEAKER1 - you. Thank
SPEAKER7 - you so much1202 for your time.
SPEAKER1 - This is Keith Franco. Testifying?
SPEAKER8 - She's, unfortunately Okay.
SPEAKER9 - It is the evidence of,
SPEAKER10 - how did that keep you
SPEAKER4 - as well? It it, there's a there's a there's an m a housing solutions dot com1220 with a clickable map. So you can any community that hasn't been met with 10% or something.
SPEAKER9 - Thank you. Thank
SPEAKER1 - you. You're welcome. Next up testing virtually is Mary Ann Carty.
SPEAKER12 - Can you hear me?
SPEAKER1 - Yes. We can.
SPEAKER12 - Thank you very much.
MARYANNE CARTY - CONCERNED CITIZEN - HB 2890 - Good afternoon. My name is Maryanne Carty, and I am the widow of Denham Police Officer Williams Canal. I am here today to ask for your support of House Bill 2890, which would amend the language of Clause 42. Currently, Clause 42 provides for 100% real estate exemption to survivor spouses of police officers or firefighters killed in the line of duty. This Bill would add language that would include police and firefighters who have also died in the line of duty. The new language would clarify that any public servant who is killed or dies while on duty would be included. I believe the original intent of the law is to take care of first responders who give their life in the line of duty, this change would make sure everyone is included. It would be a token of support for the surviving spouses or their children. I know firsthand how much it would benefit family survivors, which would also include me. This was reported out favorably last session, so I'm hoping it would be in this session. Thank you for allowing me to speak to you today on this Bill, and thank you for all you do. Being in the business is not a politics, we can't always easy these days, but, it's wonderful to have, this opportunity to speak to you. Thank you again. SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
SPEAKER9 - Thank you very much. Next, talk Thank you. Thanks. Ken Swatter, Kyle Walden, Oscar Pratt. Are you here?
Not seeing them. Next we have Margaret Heights. 1st tool.
SPEAKER13 - Hello. Hello. Thank you. Can you hear me? Yes. Okay. Thanks. I want to thank the chairs and all the members of the joint committee. I appreciate this opportunity to speak. I my name is Margaret.
SPEAKER9 - Ma'am, I just you know, it's Rose that I wonder if you could turn the
SPEAKER13 - I've been Lexington and 8 years ago and restarted to
Miss Heights? Here.
SPEAKER9 - Miss Heights. You're frozen and you're testimony is difficult to hear. Your testimony is difficult to hear. I'm wondering if you could take the camera off and perhaps we could hear you better. Okay. Great. Thank you.
SPEAKER13 - Okay. Is this better? I hope so.
SPEAKER9 - Yes.
MARGARET HERTZ - CONCERNED CITIZEN - HB 2747 - SB 1771 - Thank you. Margaret Hertz, I live in Lexington. We moved here 30 years ago and raised our two kids here. I've been actively involved in studying resources and discussing with people's support for more affordable housing in my town, and I'm here to testify in support of the statewide real estate transfer fee Bill, H 2747, S 1771. As we all well know, there is an urgent need for housing for people at all income levels and especially for the cost burden households and for tens of thousands of people at the very lowest levels in the state. The Lexington1457 Affordable Housing Trust, which was established by our town last year by the town meeting is committed to address these needs and recently, it sponsored a preliminary sketched design for a multifamily building with more than 40 units on town owned land, and it has allocated funds for a preliminary environmental study of the site. The trust, which works very transparently, I want to say, is collaborating with the Lexington Housing Authority and the Housing Assistance Board to plan how to apply for CPA funds to pay for critically important projects.
It is submitting a request to the CPC for consideration during its yearly funding cycle. If the request is fully funded, it would be very helpful. However, it1521 won't be enough, and there will be requests to the CPC for1525 other purposes, historic preservation, and outdoor recreation. The trust and the community would benefit greatly from a sustainable, dedicated stream of affordable housing funds. A real estate transfer fee that we can customize would be a terrifically useful tool. Finally, I would just like to acknowledge and thank all the communities that have proposed transfer fees for community housing. We are indeed all in this together, and I also would like to acknowledge opinions in the press, including the business press that support a new statewide real estate, transfer fee. One paper I'd like to call out, the Boston business journal published its own opinion as well as a letter written by two real estate professionals in strong support of the fee. A statewide local option transfer fee is a great opportunity for steady local funding and I encourage you to support, H 2747, S 1771 by reporting it out favorably. Again, I appreciate the chance to speak on its behalf. Thank you. SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
SPEAKER9 - Miss Hyde. Are there questions from the committee? Nope. You're all set. Next, we have,
SPEAKER13 - Thank you.
SPEAKER9 - Thanks. Jesus. Are you here?
SPEAKER8 - Yes. I'm here. Can you hear me?
SPEAKER10 - Okay.
SPEAKER8 - Alright. I am gonna read from a prepared statement because it's maybe a little bit easier for me.
JESUS LEYVA - CONCERNED CITIZEN - SB 1771 - HB 2747 - Thank you members of the joint committee on revenue. I am a Greenfield, Massachusetts resident. I'm actually a dishwasher here to testify in support of Senate Bill 1771 and the House equivalent 2747, in support of all of the transfer fee, taxes, and also all of the home rule petitions that are mirroring that. I have been a renter for most of my adult life in Northampton in Hampshire County until I purchased a house in 2016 in Greenfield in Franklin County. Due to unusual circumstances, I became a renter again this time in Greenfield from 2019 until summer of this year. As a renter, I dealt with a persistent leak in the ceiling of my bathroom for two years, which my landlord did not take effective measures to correct. This eventually led to the interior ceiling of the bathroom collapsing due to water damage in July of 2023. Luckily, no one was in the bathroom at the time, but we were home, and if we had made different decisions that day, £50 of plaster would have fallen out of the ceiling and onto our heads since the ceiling collapsed directly above the toilet. We would find out later from the health department records that the landlord had received a complaint for the same unit in 2018 of a persistent leak in the bathroom ceiling, the tenant claimed they had been living with for four years.
Yet this is not one of the worst housing condition complaints in greenfield and our landlord told us that for every apartment vacancy, they have that they quickly receive 30 applicants. Because there are so many people looking for housing and so little available, many people end up with dangerous or undesirable conditions in their housing because the alternative is homelessness. I was lucky to already be moving back to my newly vacated home that I owned at the time our apartment was condemned, but had that not been the case, nothing else was available for rent in the area at that price point. Despite the widespread noncompliance of many landlords in our area with basic minimum standards for habitability, our city's administration is deeply reluctant and unreasonably cautious1763 about enforcement. This is because they are sensitive to the reality that our housing stock is so limited in the face of demand that enforcement might deprive a low income renter of their rental at the price point they can afford.
This Bill will give local communities the local options, tax support, creating new housing stock that is affordable. Only by increasing housing stock to meet demand for housing, can you truly address issues of housing affordability and the living conditions tenants. No amount of rent control proposals or tenant protection is a substitute for giving low income people choice and negligent landlords competition. I just want to actually also respond to some of what the realtors had said on this call. They talk about the Community Preservation Act being a more equitable way of dealing with the taxation in terms of raising money for affordable housing, I think that there was a very clear study that showed that it's called the Community Preservation Act who benefits who pays that actually analyze statewide the consequences of the or fees from the Community Preservation Act and found that it was not actually widely equitable. I do want to say one thing, yes, a lot of the wealthy communities are the ones that are proposing these local home rule petitions, but Northampton and Amherst are not wealthy communities compared these other communities, and Greenfield hasn't brought forward its own home rule petition because, I mean, frankly, a lot of the low income communities don't have the kind of ability to marshal resources to do something like that in the same way that places like Touro or Cambridge or Boston can, but it's not that we don't want it, it's just that we don't have the same kind of resources to show up at these kinds of hearings and represent. SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
SPEAKER9 - K. You. Much appreciated. Other questions from the committee. Nope. You're all set. Thank you very much, Mister Lee we have a Thank you. Panel of 2 from the senior action council, Regina Maclay, and Betty Maguire.
Regina and Betty, now is your time virtual.
SPEAKER14 - Alright. Good afternoon. We've been waiting a long time. We thought perhaps we might not be able to get in this
SPEAKER9 - Go right ahead. Your time is is moving.
SPEAKER14 - Alright. Well,
BETTY ANNE MCGUIRE - MASSACHUSETTS SENIOR ACTION COUNCIL - HB 2793 - Good afternoon, and thank you very much, committee members and chairs. My name is Betty McGuire, I'm a Boston resident for 59 years, and I'm also a proud member of Massachusetts senior action council. We are a statewide social justice organization, and we're committed to advocating for the rights and welfare of seniors across Massachusetts. We have six chapters that span across the state. One of the major reasons for this is the outrageous cost of housing, affordable housing is not something that we want, we need it must have it. It's the everyday struggle of countless residents and seniors who are income burdened by housing expenses or that are on affordable housing leases for more than 20 years, that's the fact. I'm a senior housing owner and a mother of nine children, some of whom are not able to afford to live in Boston, and having raised them in the city, I think that that says something about our city. So to me, when I see a senior property taxes expansion, it looks like something a lifeline that could alleviate some of our natural burdens might otherwise force me and other elderly homeowners to relinquish our cherished homes because we live on fixed incomes and cannot afford the rising property tax.
This crucial support looks like a safeguard or the financial well-being of seniors like me who have given to our communities for decades. It also looks like helping me assure that I can stay in my home, I can provide for my children, and that I can create generational wealth for the children, and they would have an opportunity to own homes here. There is a huge lack of resources for us in our urban communities and deepen wealth disparities, allowing generations of inequality in this community. So expanding the property tax exemption is a good step in addressing these disparities, offering much needed financial relief and enabling vulnerable population to maintain their homes and financial stability. I ask you like myself to be bold and take a stand and provide the relief that's needed for seniors, homeowners in our sitting, and support this Bill of H 2793 so that we can be better equipped to have long lives. Thank you. SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
SPEAKER9 - And thank you very much. It's impressive. You have time to testify with 9 children and senior action council. Well done. Yes.
REGINA MCCOY - MASSACHUSETTS SENIOR ACTION COUNCIL - HB 2793 - Good afternoon, Chair Moran, and all members of the joint committee on Revenue. We thank representative Fluker Oakley and sponsors in both the Senate and House Chamber for the opportunity to speak with you at this hearing. My name is Regina McCoy,2169 I'm a life member of2171 Mass Senior Action Council and2173 serve as its membership Chair for the Boston chapter. Today, Ms. Betty McGuire and I are representing the strong voices of our Boston chapter, 200 plus members. We are the blue shirters, we are in support of the senior tax exemptions and Boston transfer fees which would allow the city to impose a transfer fee on real estate sales over $2,000,000 and to increase property tax exemptions for all seniors. Many of our members and residents of Boston are homeowners, thousands are low income, struggling with the high cost of living. The incidents, of housing costs burden us as age rise income falls. We are not able to cover the cost of appropriate housing and the quality of living during our retirement years. On top of these challenges, aging brings greater risk to live in place. The passage of this Bill offer benefits both to the homeowners of the city and to the city of Boston itself. It will expand income eligibility for seniors and increase the tax exemption from $2000 to $3000 per household. On the recurrent law, only 4600 senior, homeowners qualify for tax exemptions based on income. With the passage of this Bill, the number of senior homeowners would nearly double to about 8700. The city would also benefit by generating additional revenues for housing related pitch. We urge the passage of House Bill 2793, it will benefit both senior communities and reducing the stress of additional living costs and benefit the city by generating additional housing additional revenues to help alleviate the existing housing crisis in Boston. We thank you for joining and partnering with Mass senior action to resolve this crucial issue. SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
SPEAKER9 - You for your testimony. Questions?
SPEAKER18 - Go right ahead, Patty. I just wanna thank our our seniors age strong as we call them in Boston. Tech is an easy for many of us, but they still power through to deliver their testimony. You still exercise their voice and their their golden about how this would impact them. So I just wanna thank them for for taking the time empowering through despite the tech issues.
SPEAKER9 - Thank you. Next, we have a Savina Martin, a trade chair of mask for people's campaign.
SPEAKER19 - Welcome.
SAVINA MARTIN - MASSACHUSETTS PEACE ACTION - HB 2875 - SB 1820 - Thank you so much for having us here today. Again, my name is Savina Martin, and I'm on the Massachusetts poor people's campaign, a national call for more revival, Tri Cheers. We are statewide organization and as well a national organization with over 40 states across the country. I'd like to thank our legislative chair, Jonathan King, who is here today in Maureen Ellis, who represent a host of our coordinating committee members and our delegates. In 2018, we established and launched in Washington, DC, our moral budget across the nation, and as we know that, poor people's campaign is here to support the joint committee to establish or commission to establish this committee on the moral budget. Across this country and across this state, we have traveled to Washington, DC to speak about the five interlocking injustices. We've heard today about the housing crisis, today, we want to talk about systemic racism, systemic poverty, ecological devastation, the denial of health care, climate change, and all of these injustices that impact us on a daily basis in this country and in this state. So on behalf2463 of the poor people's campaign, I just2465 want to say that we're here to support the moral budget and the joint committee.
So in 2018, the poor people's campaign, a national call for moral revival released a moral agenda and declaration of fundamental rights. The demands contained with the document present a comprehensive response to the systemic racism, and I've gone over our five interlocking injustices that speak about militarism and the war economy that plagued our country today. So we're representing, I think it's 2,300,000 people in Massachusetts who are impacted by the social and economic costs of war, right? Our families are suffering by lack of food, right, where food insecurity impacted. We're impacted by low wages and high rent, just as everybody here has spoke about today, or we find ourselves one emergency away from homelessness. In our moral budget, there's seven sections and we looked at2576 the policies and investments for these seven critical areas of the poor2580 people's moral agenda, which speaks to what America was built on, right? Democracy and equal protection of the law, domestic tranquility, peace in the common defense, life and health, the planet, our future, and an equitable economy. We always say that a moral budget equals2602 a good economic budget. Lastly, but in contrast, the current realities, that we are faced with, it's a moral failure of this country to not make sure that everybody has the life, liberty, and the happiness that they deserve in this country rather than being impacted by ongoing wars and the social costs that those on the bottom have to suffer by on a daily basis. SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
Jonathan take it away, and thank you so much for being here.
JONATHAN KING - MASSACHUSETTS PEACE ACTION - HB 2875 - SB 1820 - Thank you, Savina. Chairs and member of the committee, my name is Jonathan King, I'm co chair of Mass Peace Action, which represents maybe 10,000 households across the Commonwealth. As Savina mentioned, I'm also a legislative co chair here for the poor people's campaign. Now along with tens of thousands of other red line passengers, I had to leave a half hour earlier this morning than should have been necessary to get to Park Street due to the delays on the red line, which plague us. How is it in the richest and most technologically advanced nation in human history, our subways can't reliably run. The answer is a clear failure to adequately invest in the maintenance upkeep and modernization of the transit system. Was that the failure of the state legislature? No. Was it a failure of the city of Boston? No. It was the starving of the transit system of the federal funds that are absolutely essential to running a modern system. No nation in the world with a modern transit system funds it through local fairs, property taxes, or sales taxes. Could the interstates highway system have been built with local tax revenues? No, it was funded by the federal government under Eisenhower. In fact, the red line cars I referred to were originally purchased from federal funds in old days. Sadly, this absolutely necessary level of federal funding has slowly eroded over the subsequent decades. Does Congress lack access to the dollars needed? No, the Congress appropriated more than $1,400,000,000,000 of our income taxes to run the country but the priorities have been increasingly misguided as Savina referred to as the moral budget lays out in great detail.
That's more than half the congressional annual budget now goes to the cost of wars, including new costly and unnecessary nuclear weapons. I hope that members of this committee are aware that half your income taxes goes to the war budget, but I can tell you that most Americans don't know that and most members of the legislature don't know that from my experience testifying2786 on2786 other Bills. But as an example, the US has 14 nuclear armed missile2792 submarines, each one can fire 200 nuclear armed missiles enough to wipe out the major cities, any nation on earth. Yet the Congress is proposing to spend tens of billions of dollars of our tax dollars to buy eight more submarines. Of course, these are enormously profitable for the handful of industries that receive the contracts, we don't need new submarines, we need new subways, new signals, new tracks, and power supplies. Of course, we need housing, you've spent the last two hours hearing about the failure of public investment housings. Nuclear submarines they won't get us to work, they won't house us, they won't clothe us, they won't protect us from pandemics, they won't help us produce the products we need, and they won't protect us from terrorists, right? They're just a black hole. Unfortunately, as I mentioned, very few Massachusetts citizens2846 are aware of how their tax dollars are spent, no agency of the federal government has ever in the 100 years of the income tax ever reported back to2858 the citizenry how their tax dollars are spent.
You have to have a PhD in economics to find out where that congressional money actually goes. For example, very significant fraction of the Massachusetts Department of Transportation money comes from the congressional appropriations. If you go to the DOT website, they have lots of stuff on money they're spending, but digging out the fact that a lot of that comes from the federal government, that's pretty well camouflaged. So people don't know that that money is key to taking care of the bridges, the roads, and the subways. Now the commission, I'm coming to the end, the commission that is established by this Bill, by both Bills, by the House, and Senate Bills would report to the commonwealth, report to the citizens, reports to the2910 legislature, the consequences of if the US Congress adopted the moral budget proposed by the poor people's campaign, which is a very detailed, carefully constructed budget, not pie in the sky. This budget would2928 shift priorities from nuclear submarines to the subways to housing to health care to what people need in Massachusetts. Without such information, citizens can't advocate for themselves, right? If people don't know how their tax dollars are being misused, they can't make an argument to change priorities. So this is kind of small potatoes in a way compared to the many of the issues you deal with, just setting up a commission that would report on a different ways to surrender tax dollars, but it's one of those steps that if we don't take a step like that, we're not going to solve the problems that you all face. Thank you very much for your attention. SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
SPEAKER19 - Mister
Harrison?
SPEAKER21 - Yes. Hello. Can you hear me?
SPEAKER1 - Yes. We can.
COLE HARRISON - MASSACHUSETTS PEACE ACTION - SB 1820 - HB 2875 - Thank you, Chairs Cusack and Moran for convening this hearing. I'm Cole Harrison, executive director of Massachusetts Peace Action. Peace action was formed in 1957 as the committee for a sane nuclear policy. Today, Massachusetts peace action has about 2000 dues paying members and 13,000 online supporters in the Commonwealth. We advocate for a peaceful US foreign policy, nuclear disarmament, cooperation between global powers, an end to our overseas military interventions, and extensive sanctions and a reduction in Pentagon spending so resources are available to build a more just society in the United States. We're supporting two Bills, H 2875, and S 1820, sponsored by Representative Jay Livingston and Senator Paul Feeney, which call for a commission to report on the moral budget. In fiscal 2024, the federal government is expected to spend $1.171,000,000,000,000, or in round numbers, $1,200,000,000,000 on military spending, and another $1,100,000,000,000 on past wars, including veterans benefits and interest on the debt. Massachusetts taxpayers will contribute $29,800,000,000 to Pentagon spending this year or in this fiscal year.
Yet the needs of our people are being starved for funding, The MBTA has severe funding deficiencies, as Jonathan mentioned. In Massachusetts, there were over 2,400,000 poor and low income people in 2020, 34% of the population. 1,024,000 people in Massachusetts relied on food stamps in 2022. But SNAP benefits were reduced this year, impacting at least 635,000 people. 365,900 people in the state have lost access to Medicaid, and 165,000 had no health insurance during the height of the pandemic. The moral budget developed by the poor people's campaign is a federal budget proposal to dramatically change our priorities and reallocate funding to the people's real needs. It would greatly increase funding sent by the federal government to assist the Massachusetts legislature in meeting people's needs here. The commission formed by this legislation would report on the impact of passing the moral budget on the people of Massachusetts. Thank you for your attention. SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
SPEAKER1 - Thank you very much. Any comments or questions from the committee? See you then. Thank you very much.
MARTIN - If there are no comments or questions, I'd just like to wrap up by saying, as a veteran of the United States army, I know firsthand what it is to come back home and be faced with insecure housing and homelessness. I spent half of my life working with unhoused families, in fact, I was one of the first women along with five other mothers in the communities who refurbished an abandoned building over 30 years ago for women in Roxbury who were faced with housing crisis and whose children were foster care. Today, in 2023, that home still exists and provides housing for women in need. I've spent over 25 years working with veteran women as far as San Diego, 39 military installations there, veteran suicide off the rack, veterans faced with TBI, traumatic brain injury. This joint committee is necessary, the moral budget is necessary today in this country as we're trying to come out Covid, but we are still facing an existential crisis, not only here, but in the world. So I just like to wrap it up by saying that. SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
And I can go get something.
SPEAKER9 - Thank you.
SPEAKER1 - Thank you, Savannah. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. Next up is, Tucker Holland. Housing director from Nantucket.
TUCKER HOLLAND - TOWN OF NANTUCKET - HB 2747 - SB 1771 - Chair Moran, Chair Cusack, and members of the joint committee, good afternoon. I'm Tucker Holland, Housing Director for the town of Nantucket. I am here in support of House Bill 2747 and Senate Bill 1971, an act granting a local option for real estate transfer fee to fund affordable housing and in support of all transfer Bills. It is good to be with you all, thank you for devoting your time and attention to this critical matter. I carry3324 hope that while tweaks may be required, as3328 Rep Paulino noted, that we can all agree that this is a measure, a tool for municipalities where the time has finally come. In seven years since Nantucket has simply been seeking permission from the state to help itself, we have seen our median home price more than double from $1,300,000 to now over $3,000,000. Our town and a hospital consistently unable to build dozens of year round positions, and our community lose countless valued community members who contribute to Nantucket in myriad ways, all this traces back to housing. This optional fee is arguably the most important and significant tool, you3376 can grant to municipalities across the Commonwealth in their effort to combat their local housing crisis. The beauty of this measure is it doesn't cost you a thing, it takes no money from state coffers, and if you act on this, you are not imposing anything on any municipality, it is purely optional. If a community wants it or needs it, it is available, if not, they need not access it.
We know that transfer fees work, we can look no further3410 than Nantucket and Martha's Vineyard to see the valuable contributions they make and without dampening real estate values or volume, in fact, all evident to the contrary. Had this measure been in place last year, we would have generated over $6,000,000 in the Nantucket alone on a modest 1.5% fee only on real estate transaction amounts over $2,000,000 and that money can go even further through bonding. Some people will say the housing bond Bill will provide significant resources that lie tech can be a substantial subsidy and that CPA funds can be put to work, all are true statements. The problem is, as manager Wong noted, they are not sufficient, they are not enough, we have a $500,000,000 issue in the Nantucket alone. As Senator Cyr noted, voters and non voters in Nantucket have been very supportive generating over 70,000,000 toward the cause in the last four years, including a $6,500,000 permanent override for housing last spring. $10,000,000 has been bonded by our CPA funds, but you can easily see it is not enough, it is also not flexible enough. You can understand with a $3,000,000 median home price, one needs to be earning five times the area median income to afford the median home in Nantucket. We have need at a wide range of income levels. The statistics marked race incited about severe housing costs bargain are true in Nantucket and the available and state resources are almost entirely limited to 100% AMI or below. Moreover, state funds are competitively3516 sought after, there aren't enough to go around if we are committed as the Commonwealth to genuinely solving our housing issue. Someone wise once said, boldness has genius in it, you have the opportunity to be bold and act favorably on the local option transfer fee. In so doing, you may do nothing less than to preserve the very core of who we are as a Commonwealth. Thank you. SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
SPEAKER1 - Thank you. Do we wish to testify? Or
are we good? Okay. Alright. Thank you very much. Next up is Mark Martinez.
SPEAKER24 - Hello.
MARK MARTINEZ - MASSACHUSETTS LAW REFORM INSTITUTE - HB 2747 - SB 1771 - Thank you, Chair Cusack and Moran for the opportunity to testify today. My name is Mark Martinez, and I'm a housing attorney at the Massachusetts Law Reform Institute. I'm here today to testify in support of S 1771 and H 2747, an act granting a local option for real estate transfer fee to fund affordable housing. As a part of my work at MLRI, I serve as co chair of the local option for housing affordability coalition, otherwise known as the LOHA Coalition. We are a coalition of over 100 organizations from all over Massachusetts in support of a local option for a transfer fee. Our coalition includes housing advocates, providers, CDC's faith based organizations, public health professionals, and hospitals because we all understand that stable and affordable housing is crucial for health, safety, and community. The Bill before you today is a result of conversations had with partners all over the state. We know that while the crisis impacts every corner of the Commonwealth, that there is no one size fits all solution to this problem, because we know this, we have a Bill that has been drafted to be flexible to meet the needs of any community that decides they want to enact a transfer fee.
This flexibility is key to the success of any transfer legislation being a statewide solution to the housing crisis we are living in. This Bill would allow communities to enact a modest fee between 0.5 and 2%, it applies to transactions over $1,000,000 in exempts first time homebuyers. Importantly, in order for this Bill to work as a statewide tool for communities that are located outside of a county with the median sale price below $750,000, the Bill allows for the threshold to be at the county median sale price for a single family home. This Bill also allows for regional agreements between municipalities, these provisions are incredibly important for our communities in central and Western Mass. This is why our lead sponsor is Senator Comerford, representing Western Massachusetts, and why you hear testimony from elected officials and advocates from Central and Western Mass, as well. Beyond what I've laid out here today, this Bill would allow communities to add in any other exemptions that they think are necessary for a transfer fee to be successful in their community.
Any money raised for a transfer fee would go to the municipality's affordable housing trust fund, meaning that all funds would go directly to affordable housing. As building becomes more expensive and affordable, affordable housing often require subsidies and is an important as cities and towns have the funds to support the creation of more affordable housing. 11 communities from major cities to small towns and suburbs have already filed home rule petitions to be able to enact a transfer fee and many more are in conversations about doing3709 the same. Beyond the communities that3711 have already filed home rule petitions or in the process of doing so, we know many other communities would seek to pass a transfer fee if enabling legislation were to become law. Poll after poll tells us that the most important issue to people in Massachusetts is housing and how unaffordable it is, and I know that from talking to so many of you that this is echoed in the interactions that you're having in district and with your constituents. While a transfer fee may not be the right solution for every community, it doesn't have to be, but it not being a solution for community should not get in the way of others using a tool that they've decided is needed for them. The time is now to give cities and towns all over Massachusetts access to these critical tools so they can help solve this enduring crisis. For these reasons, I ask that you report this Bill out favorably. SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
SPEAKER1 - Thank you very much, Mark. Any comments or questions on the committee? See you then. Thank you. Now we're joined now by, virtually by Counseloruzzi Lejune. Councilor?
SPEAKER7 - Good afternoon. Can everyone hear me?
SPEAKER1 - Yes. We
SPEAKER7 - can. Awesome. Thank you so much. My apologies. I was there in person, but had to leave around 12:30 to come to city hall for matters here. So, apologies, but thank you for having me virtually.
RUTHZEE LOUIJEUNE - BOSTON CITY COUNCIL - HB 2793 - Dear, Chair Moran and Chair Cusack, members of the joint committee on revenue. My name is Ruthzee Louijeune, I'm an at large city councilor representing all3795 of Boston, and I'm here today at support of Bill, H2793, an act relative to real estate transfer fees and senior property tax relief. I want to echo the statements made by Mayor Michelle Wu and State Representative, Randy Fluker Oakley in their testimony and also the register of deeds and all of those who have supported, who have talked about the money that we are leaving on the table without having this transfer fee to really address some of the most dire needs that our constituents comes with with every day, which is out of affordable housing. The home rule petition is a framework for shared prosperity whereby our real estate and construction industries join our residents at the economic table to help keep our communities affordable and diverse and allow older residents and the next generation of families to stay in Boston. Like many of the real estate transfer fees, we've heard from Senator Julian Cyr and others today was structured thoughtfully and carefully, as has been done here, evidenced by review and passage unanimously by the Boston City Council and the Mayor's administration, it will provide a sustainable source of revenue that will not merely be in reinvested in municipal coffers but deposited directly into Boston's neighbor and housing trust.3865 Thus, this transfer fee would significantly increase the city's ability to invest specifically in affordable housing, help address the housing affordability crisis here in Boston.
Currently, housing and commercial developments, we're seeing continued growth, but not all residents are reaping the benefits of a strong local economy. Over the last several years, rents have surged for many Boston residents and the speculative housing market is continuing to displace and evict all of our residents, disproportionately our black and brown residents at higher rates than any other demographic. We must recognize3899 the urgent need to ensure that our residents can find stable and affordable housing in Boston. This is an issue that I've been working on since I was a student attorney at the Harvard League Bureau, spending my Saturdays knocking on doors of homeowners and tenants in East Boston and across the city facing foreclosure and eviction and directing them to legal services. I was the co director of3919 the eviction clinic at the3921 Bureau and I assisted so many individuals facing eviction keeping them in their home. Representative Fluker Oakley also mentioned how Mattapan has the highest rate of evictions where I was born and raised and where I get a disproportionate number of calls every day from constituents facing eviction and housing instability because we just don't have enough affordable housing in our city. It's important that we address the issues that constituents come to us with every day, and this real estate transfer fee is one measure, one of the important measures to get us there. This home rule petition is a modest compromise Bill. Upon passage, the city of Boston would be required to analyze the bait and further approve any fee up to the maximum 2% transfer fee outlined within the Bill.
The city would be empowered to also add additional exemptions and exceptions to ensure that it is narrowly tailored and can be used as intended. Funds from the real estate transfer fee are limited in school, it can only be deposited in the neighborhood housing trust, it was for key housing programs in the city. In addition to funding affordable housing, the neighborhood housing trust also helps fund public, quasi public, and private real estate projects that utilize mixed use work for senior housing projects that go beyond affordability. The home rule petition also expands property tax relief for low income seniors by modifying the eligibility area as well as increasing the amount of the exemption.3998 These changes in terms of4000 provide much needed financial assistance for4002 a vulnerable population. Furthermore, this HRP can also serve as a tool to address housing market volatility, making homeownership more accessible and stable for those who aspire to it, the Mayor also addressed that. By creating this reliable revenue stream, a real estate transfer fee will help alleviate municipal budgetary housing constraints, and reduced overall burden on taxpayers, ensuring continued growth and prosperity for current and future residents. I believe that approving this HRP fee for real estate fee would be a responsible and forward thinking decision then by this committee that would demonstrate its commitment to sustainable growth, improve public services, and the well-being of all residents by advancing an agenda of shared prosperity in Boston and Massachusetts and beyond. Thank you for hearing my testimony, and I hope that this is going favorably out of SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
committee.
SPEAKER1 - Thank you, counselor. Any comments or questions from the committee? See you now. Thank you. Next up, we have Lee Davis, vice chair of the Barrington Select board. And, it's Worcester City Councilor Atel Hajier. Joining us virtually.
SPEAKER11 - Good afternoon. Thank you, chairs and Committee for the opportunity to test Hi, Gary.
LEIGH DAVIS - GREAT BARRINGTON SELECT BOARD - HB 2747 - SB 1771 - Good afternoon. Thank you, Chairs and committee for the opportunity to testify today. My name is Leigh Davis, I'm the Vice Chair of the Great Barrington Select Board, I am the Chair of the housing sub committee and, in my paying job, I am the communication director of construct, which is the largest non profit affordable housing agency in the Southern Berkshire. So I have lots of things, I'm also a solo parent to three, and I qualify for affordable housing. So I know what it's like to be having to go through how and disability, so, I kind of see this from many, many different perspectives from that of an elected official to actually work for affordable housing. I'm here to add my strong support for H 2747 and S 1771, filed by Rep Connolly and Senator Comerford. The housing crisis doesn't stop in Central Mass or Eastern Mass, it extends all4139 along the Commonwealth into Western Mass. We all recognize that we have a a housing crisis but it's important to know that the housing crisis spreads all the way from Boston to Berkshires where I'm from, and from major cities, Boston, you know, as I said, to right here. The challenge that we face, is very similar but we see it in different perspectives.
In Great Barrington, just to give you a snapshot, we are a population of approximately 7200 residents, and we have about 3500 units. We have, in the past five years, we've seen 73% initiation of home sales, and our service workers, which make up a a great population of our, our homes, workers, they make roughly about $19 an hour, to qualify for any housing in Great Barrington, you need to make $28 an car. So, roughly, you need to make two times the amount to afford a median home in Great Barrington, so, the struggle is real. I had a conversation with a mainstream realtor recently, and he said that 83% of his sales are on cash, so we have crosshairs on the back. Basically, we're watching what's happening in Nantucket, we're watching what's happening in Boston, we are next up, and and it's happening. Were very, very blessed to have, these long motors and secondhand motors, but they are pushing residents out, and from, the construct hat that I worked in affordable housing, we're starting to get out tents and sleeping beds because there's no motels available, we can't build enough housing, and we can't even purchase enough and the the struggle is real.
As I mentioned, the cash buyers are are coming into Great Barrington. In the Berkshires, roughly half the sales across Linux, Great Barrington, and Williams Town in 2022 for cash sales. Meanwhile, in4258 Great Barrington, we had a housing needs4260 assessment in 2020, and that showed that 6000 people are4264 housing waiting list for 110 subsidized units, and this is the one we can provide locally, so there's a huge waiting list. With all these cash owners and seasonal homeowners, we're getting pushed out and we're feeling squeezed. So I don't know if you're familiar with the Berkshires, it's beautiful place, but if you come recently, if you come soon, you'll see that a lot of the coffee shops are closing, the restaurants are looking for staff, and there's a struggle. We're going through a school merger right now because the student population is declining. So, it's a very real crisis and, our town government is working very hard, and our voters are working hard. So recently, we passed a short term mental buy law, and we're trying to, pump the brakes on investors taking up all the long term properties. We've also dedicated a significant amount of CPA funds to affordable housing, so we're in it. We're doing as much as we can, but we just lack the resources and to find affordable housing and to repurpose housing and to develop programs, you need revenue. What this would do is this would give us an ability to4332 leverage funds and it's very, very important. So it's not that we're putting all our eggs in one basket, we're working very, very hard, and we see the Connolly Bills and Comerford Bills that provide us this best possible path to do so. So I urge you strongly to report out this Bill, and thank you very much for your time. SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
SPEAKER1 - I just have to Sure.
SPEAKER9 - Quickly say that,
SPEAKER25 - if
SPEAKER9 - you're confused in you here is so appreciated because
SPEAKER19 - it really did sort of
SPEAKER9 - the fabric of the entire stick. So thank you.
SPEAKER11 - And just the fabric, Erickson, is actually looking 90 pairs. So you're expecting it in our end, and that we're hoping to be able to
SPEAKER1 - Mhmm. Thank you.
I can't hear you.
Nope.
Nope.
SPEAKER9 - Let's keep try going off and calling back here.
SPEAKER1 - You can't hear anything.
SPEAKER19 - Okay.
SPEAKER1 - She should slow down. Yeah. You could log off and call back in. Thank you. I'm moving on Cindy Rowe and Hillary Pfizer.
She hung up.
SPEAKER26 - Hi.
CINDY ROWE - JEWISH ALLIANCE FOR LAW AND SOCIAL ACTION - SB 1771 - HB 2747 - SB 1799 - HB 2894 - Thank you very much. I'm Cindy Rowe, the CEO of JALSA, the Jewish Alliance for law and4484 social action. We are a membership based nonprofit organization based in Boston with thousands of members and supporters statewide. Guided by Jewish teachings and values, we are devoted to the defense of civil rights, the preservation of constitutional liberties, and the passionate4502 pursuit of social, economic, environmental, and racial justice for all. JALSA also wishes to offer its testimony in strong support of senate 1771 and House 2747 and act granting a local option for real estate transfer fee to fund affordable housing and Senate 1799 and H 2894, an act providing for climate change adaptation for infrastructure and affordable housing investments in the Commonwealth, the Hero Bill. JALSA is proud to be a member of the local option, LOHA Coalition. This Bill would enable Massachusetts municipalities to enact a local option transfer fee in order to fund the development of affordable housing. The Commonwealth is facing an extreme affordable housing crisis, and this Bill provides communities with flexibility to address this crisis in a way that best suits their local needs. We know this approach is desirable given that 11 communities have already filed home rule petitions to be able to enact a transfer fee with many more communities discussing the same approach.
Similarly, JALSA is proud to be a member of the hero coalition. This Bill would responsibly raise urgently needed revenue that would fund between 3500 and 6500 new housing vouchers and constructor preserve 18,000 housing units over a decade. It would also support large scale climate mitigation, adaptation projects such as decarbonization of low and moderate income housing and4596 protection of low income and coastal communities in line with the Massachusetts clean energy climate plan. These two measures are critically important for Massachusetts to combat the affordable housing crisis and meet the urgent needs of Commonwealth residents. Our faith based values have impressed upon us the importance of housing as a civil right. On Young Kipper, our most sacred holiday, we read in Isaiah, take the poor into your homes. The Bible also commands that a poor person be granted sufficient for what lacks according to what is lacking to him which includes a bed and a table and therefore a home. We must take all steps that we can to make housing accessible and affordable for all. Upholding human dignity, the fundamental Jewish value of Khavod Habriote4647 demands that we ensure housing for all. JALSA strongly urges the members of this committee to report out these two Bills favorably and make sure that people in our Commonwealth have access to housing. Thank you.
RISHABH RAMAMURTHY- MASSACHUSETTS AFFORDABLE HOUSING ALLIANCE - SB 1771 - HB 2747 - HB 2894 - SB 1799 - Good afternoon. My name is [inaudible 01:17:49], I'm an organizer with the Massachusetts Affordable Housing Alliance or MAHA. Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you all on behalf4679 of our members. MAHA is a statewide organization based in Boston, we're dedicated to educating and mobilizing people to break down barriers for first time and first generation homebuyers and shrink the racial homeownership gap. We graduate about 2500 people each year from our first time home buyer classes. We also run a growing match savings a co program for first generation homebuyers and provide post purchase classes to over a thousand people each4712 year. In addition, we organize our graduates to advocate for policies and funding that will help them buy and maintain their homes. MAHA strongly supports, local option transfer fee legislation, the statewide enabling legislation, Boston's home rule petition and all of the other home rule petitions. We're also part of the Hero Coalition supporting H 2894,4739 S4739 1799,4739 an4739 act4739 providing for climate change adaptation infrastructure and affordable housing investments in the Commonwealth. We will submit written testimony on both the transfer fee and hero, but I will focus my comments today on the transfer fee Bills. In Boston, flexible ARPA funding is making it possible to significantly increase the number of homes being built for first time homebuyers.
In order to continue to make progress, we desperately need this revenue stream that can pick back up one time ARPA funds are exhausted. Every month, MAHA adds hundreds of prospective homebuyers to the Greater Boston housing market where there's almost nothing that they can afford and we're not alone in this experience. We know this because MAHA staff is a statewide homeownership action network made up of non profit organizations that offer first time homebuyer classes across the state. We're hearing the same thing from every corner in Massachusetts, graduates with steady jobs, great credit, and adequate down payments simply cannot find4805 a home that they can afford. So the time for action is now, again, we urge you to immediately vote the transfer fee enabling Bill out favorably and to do all that is within your power to get it passed and signed by the government. Communities that want this must not be held up any longer, please let our cities and town's help address local housing needs. Thank you. SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
SPEAKER1 - Thank you. Any comments or questions? Tina. Thank you. Next up is a panel joining us virtually Pamela Schwartz, Shamika Marana, and Lisa Holdorf.
PAMELA SCHWARTZ - WESTERN MASSACHUSETTS NETWORK TO END HOMELESSNESS - HB 2747 - SB 1771 - Good afternoon, Chair Cusack, Chair Moran, and honorable members of the committee. I'm here on behalf of the Western Massachusetts network to end homelessness in support of House Bill 2747, Senate 1771, the local option for real estate transfer fee to fund affordable housing. The network serves the four counties of Western Massachusetts, Hampton, Hampshire, Franklin, and Berkshire counties to prevent an end homelessness through a housing first approach that centers racial equity. This local option Bill is a top priority for the network because of the extreme affordable housing crisis facing our Western Massachusetts communities. The network joins over 100 others as a proud member of the local option for housing affordability Coalition in support of this Bill and is especially grateful our Western Massachusetts Senator Joe Comerford for her lead sponsorship. In Western Massachusetts, a recent report by the UMass Donahue Institute showed an affordable housing gap of 11,000 units slated to grow to 19,000 by 2025. This gap is lived every day in devastating ways with unprecedented rates of homelessness across our region. Our network partners all to frequently share the story of housing subsidies returned due to the inability to locate an affordable place in which to use it.
Eviction filings in Western Massachusetts have increased 36% over the last year alone, creating even more pressure on a housing market that offers no place to go. This local option Bills flexibility is especially suited to meet the needs of Western Massachusetts where our median home sales prices are lower than the Eastern part of the state. Providing for the option to use the county median sales price if the median is below $750,000 is critical to making this a useful affordable housing development tool in our region as is the opportunity to pool transfer fees across our more rural communities into regional affordable housing funds. While you've heard from the Western Mass communities of both Amherst and Great Barrington today, and, of course, we support Amherst home rule petition and all of our community's efforts, we know there are many more exploring all affordable housing options, including this one. This Bill offers an effective and comprehensive vehicle to make this tool available to all of our communities all at once. It would shorten a process that desperately needs to be shortened so that communities can be empowered to decide if and how a transfer fee would address their affordable housing needs with the knowledge that they can act immediately. We ask for your favorable report on these Bills and deeply appreciate your consideration of the urgency at hand for Western Massachusetts and the entire Commonwealth. Thank you.
SHAMIKA - BOSTON CENTER COALITION - SB 1771 - HB 2747 - HB 2793 - Good afternoon. My name is [inaudible 01:23:40], I'm here speaking on behalf of Boston Center Coalition, a Coalition of Senate's community and housing groups working to increase the supply low income housing and senior vice of auction. I'm here to ask you as support for both the5034 state enabling transfer fee Bills, S 1771 and H 2747, and the Boston home rule petition Bills, H 2793, and all the other home rule petitions before you. You know the severity of housing crisis for low and moderate income families5052 individuals in the Boston5054 and across the Commonwealth area. I'm a first generation college graduate and live in an affordable housing. Made it possible for me to do so. Boston is a hub I remain here to raise my children. As a single mom five, having stabilized housing is what provides me the capacity yet to give my children stability. Not having affordable housing is hard for families to buy with the basic of needs, a place to call home and an affordable unit. The transfer fee provides a5080 critical new tool to help localities address5082 the housing crisis S 1771 and 2747. It's challenging cities to create the most appropriate policy for the community, including creating local exemptions to best meet the needs and local circumstances.
The home rule petitions before you like Boston's have had such policies, we desperately need new tools in Boston5104 System to stem displacement and house our residents. Many long term and others that provide you a daily from other towns, city, states and nations. Boston has a high rate of lack of affordable housing, we need more, not having5118 a home affects our school system as well.5120 Attending school requires a night's rest, how can you give that to your children if your income doesn't match your market to provide them a home? In Boston, thousands of dollars are dedicated to preserve and produce housing. In addition to our state and federal funding, we use city, land, Community Preservation Act Fund, Inclusionary development and linkage have new zoning rules and dedicating funds to city subsidy programs and many other projects, but we need so much more given the prices. We need additional tools, a transfer fee would really go a long way in Boston and so many communities. Real Estate transfer fees have been used across the country in 37 other states and in Washington, D. C. It's not a new tool, please advance these Bills and work with us to push this to the finish line. Thank you to the committee for giving you time to speak.
LISA HOLDORF - CONCERNED CITIZEN - SB 1771 - HB 2747 - Hi. My name is Lisa Holdorf, I am a farmer and a resident of affordable housing in Concord. Since 2014, my business partner and I have managed a 15 acre, organic vegetable farm on Tumble wood Property. The property includes not only the farmland, but also crucially a two family home, which we leased from the town at an affordable rate. It would not have been possible to start and run this farm business without being able to live on the farm and it would not have been possible to live in Concord on a farmer in without the town making this affordable option available. Living in affordable housing has allowed me to live out my of owning my own farm business and5218 to get to do it in town where I grew up. It has meant that my children have enjoyed the benefits of growing up on a farm, going to Concord Public Schools, and living close to their extended family. But I believe that these benefits are not just limited to my family, I think our town benefits when the people who work and own businesses in the community can also afford to live there. Concord did an amazing thing when they created this affordable housing opportunity but more affordable housing options are absolutely essential for the ongoing viability of my farm, as well as many other small businesses that contribute to the character and vibrancy of my community.
The lack of affordable housing for our workers is a significant barriers to staffing our business and retaining experienced employees long term. We come from a community that is dominated like single family homes, affordable apartments are a rarity. We really stretch our5268 budget to provide decent wages for our employees, but it is not enough to be able to get housing in Concord or the surrounding community. We are fortunate to have many employees who love what they do, but the ability to live with parents or a long term partner with higher income shouldn't be a prerequisite for pursuing a career with limited fiscal rewards but high value to the community. Municipal funds were essential key of the puzzle for purchasing and renovating the affordable house in which we live. If the town had never made the investment in this house and the surrounding farmland, it could very well have been converted into yet more housing that is out of reach for the majority of Massachusetts residents. Towns are in the best position to address their local affordable housing shortages, but they cannot pursue such projects without the ability to raise money for means like a transfer fee. In 2023, Concord voted to reauthorize our original 2019 home rule petition for a real estate transfer fee. The need is urgent, every year that action is not taken to approve our home rule petition, Concord loses critical funds for affordable housing, and the potential affordable housing stocks from town dwindles as once affordable homes are torn down to make way for multi million homes. I strongly urge you to report favorably, not on the Concord's home rule petition, but also the Comerford Connolly statewide real estate transfer fee enabling legislation. Thank you. SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
SPEAKER1 - Thank you, Elise. Thank you, Elise. Any comments or questions seen on? Thank you. Counselor. Hi, guys. Rejoined5356 us. Counsela.
SPEAKER30 - Thank you. I hope you can hear me.
SPEAKER1 - We can now.5360 Thank you.
ETEL HAXHIAJ - NATIONAL HEALTHCARE FOR THE HOMELESS COUNCIL - HB 2747 - SB 1771 - Thank you so much for giving me some grace. Hello, Co Chairs Cusack and Moran, members of the joint revenue committee, I am coming to you from Worcester, I'm a Worcester City Councilor. I'm also policy manager for the National Healthcare Coalition for the homeless council. I'm testifying in support of H 2747 and S 1771. I just want to give a shout out to the LOHA Coalition for their amazing organizing and for including Worcester Voices in this work. I can tell you as a municipal leader and housing advocate that Worcester would benefit greatly from this enabling legislation to give municipal leaders like myself the option to impose a fee of up to 2% on real estate transaction fees and have a community discussion on how to best match that to our community conditions. As you know, Worcester is a gateway community, we're trying our best to figure out how to support our residents. We recently adopted the Community Preservation Act, adopted the Worcester's first inclusionary zoning ordinance and program and our ARPA funds were used to fund Worcester's first affordable housing trust fund. These are all good measures, and, preserving and supporting the construction deeply affordable housing, as you know, will take a lot more than this.
We know that the low income housing tax credit program does not do enough to meet the needs for more housing for our seniors, our young people, and families being displaced by high rents. Real estate speculation is booming in Worcester, people are making profit on the backs of our community members, while our families and residents are left days and suffocating under unaffordable rents and lack of healthy housing options. So we're in dire need to build5453 and preserve more affordable housing. The HDIP program is receiving millions of dollars While we're scrambling to house families with kids and our seniors getting evicted, how is this all helpful? Why do we always have to fight for crumbs? This legislation would allow us to add one more revenue stream to fund our affordable housing trust fund. It would allow us to continue funding Worcester first pilot program preserving naturally occurring affordable housing, and without additional revenue to supplement the CPA, which hasn't kicked in yet, or payments in lieu of option from our inclusionary zoning program, we will continue to see speculators by real estate drive rent prices up and leave many of my constituents unable to meet their basic needs. I'm appealing to you as a mom, as a housing advocate, elected official who's deeply agitated by the visible and invisible struggle of my residents, especially those in low wealth, black indigenous people of color, refugee, and undocumented communities. Thank you, and I hope you will report this favorably out of committee.
PETER BURKE - NANTUCKET ISLAND CHAMBER OF COMMERCE - SB 1771 - HB 2747 - Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak. I'm Peter Burke, the executive director of the Nantucket Island Chamber of Commerce. I want to say thank you to Tucker Holland who's been a pioneer in shaping affordable housing in our area and the state and the Chairs and the committee for the opportunity to speak. Our chamber proudly represents over 770 members and is a significant proportion of the Nantucket Business community. Consistently, the number one issue facing our chamber members is housing, attracting and retaining top tier talent is a rapidly accelerating problem with the number one impediment being the lack of access to affordable housing options. We are experiencing this at every level of employment from hourly, seasonal, park time positions to full time year round salary positions. While Nantucket housing challenges are similar to many other communities throughout Massachusetts, we are experiencing the housing shortage more acutely because of our unique location and scarce inventory of total housing available on the island. Additionally, with the chambers work as a tourism advocate for our region and the state, I'm aware that the outward perception of Nantucket dominated by our headline grabbing real estate prices and one of a kind idyllic beauty can mask the real world needs of our burgeoning year round community.
The inability to sufficiently hire and fill positions directly impacts the ability of our businesses to thrive. Staffing shortages result in reduced hours for our restaurants and retailers and put additional strain on our chamber member's ability to sustain their operations. Tourism is an economic revenue driver for the state and our region specifically, and a stable year round workforce is the foundational block that our seasonal economy is built on. While we appreciate the end result of the housing crunch may be similar across the state, the contributing factors in each region are quite nuanced, and it would be unreasonable to adopt a single plan that will work for every municipality. Nantucket Chamber would like to echo what voters in our community have voiced for the last seven years. We believe5664 the housing transfer fee will enable us to address housing issues specific to our municipalities. We are asking that our state legislators to pass H 2747 and S 1771, and all other transfer fee Bills and allow each municipality to decide individually what works best for them.5682 Thank you very much for the time.
RONA FISHMAN - CONCERNED CITIZEN - HB 2747 - SB 1771 - HB 3845 - HB 4063 - I'm Rona Fishman, thank you very much, Representative Cusack and Moran and I lost my patriot from Somerville. I am in support of the home rule petition for Somerville, which is H 3845 at which is where I live, and H 4063, which is Cambridge, which is where I work. I'm also in support of the state versions granting local option, which is H 2747 and S 1771. I've been a realtor since 1991 and I worked all over Middlesex County, and most of what I wrote has already been said.5739 So what I want to do is I want to talk about partly what the realtor Association is saying, which is that these transfer fees would affect all buyers and sellers, which is simply not true. Somerville specifically excludes owner occupied buyers and owner occupying sellers, so it's just not true. It is aimed at high end real estate and not at5767 the real estate of entry level people5769 who are the people we need to protect. It's the young people and the people coming out of colleges that we want to keep in this state as a driver of our businesses and our communities, it's not the people who are in the business of turning over real estate for profit over and over again. Therefore, a transfer fee sits with the people who are making money off of real estate rather than making homes out of real estate.
Again, I've been doing this since 1991. When I started in Somerville, there were hundreds of two family houses for sale because we were in a recession, between a $180,000 and $200,000 for 14 room, two bedroom houses. Those two bedroom houses are $1,200,000, $1,400,000, $2,000,000 depending on how how glitzy they've been renovated. I started working in a real estate company5833 in Newton in 1996, and at that time, the wife of my broker was a recruiter for a hospital, and she was having trouble getting nurses and techs and anyone other than established doctors to come to Boston because the housing was too expensive then, that was 2000. Fast forward 20 years, and the mess is extraordinary. You know, when we're talking about who can't afford houses, we're talking about our State Rep who has to marry a millionaire in order to buy his house, and, teachers forget it, social workers. When we, in my company, have a a nurse practitioner, it takes us months to5880 find something decent at its small and it needs work. Every year, I say this is not sustainable, and every year, it gets less sustainable. Five years ago, Somerville asked for a home rule petition, and here we are, we're still asking. When my Rep was saying that a house sold across the street 40% more, the people who are bidding on that, all cash, no home inspection,5918 are not first time homebuyers, if we want people to own houses, live in them, be part of the community, home rule petition for transfer fee is the way to do it.5935 SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
SPEAKER16 - Okay.
SPEAKER1 - Sorry. Next up is Jenny Rate and Kim Robinson.
SPEAKER32 - Hi. I'm Kim Robinson. Unfortunately, Jenny's not able to be here today, but I will go ahead and testify
KIMBERLY ROBINSON - PIONEER VALLEY PLANNING COMMISSION - SB 1799 - HB 2894 - SB 1771 - HB 2747 - First, thank you so much, Chairs Cusack and Moran and members of the committee for the opportunity to testify today. My name Kim Robinson, and I'm the executive director of the Pioneer Valley Planning Commission, which is the Regional Planning Agency for the Pioneer Valley. I'm joining you today both on behalf of PVPC and the Massachusetts Association of Regional Planning Agencies or MARPA to voice our strong support for H 2894 and S 1799 filed by Representative Montano and Senator Eldridge and H 2747 and S 1771 filed by Representative Connolly and Senator Comerford. As the statewide organization representing the Commonwealth's 13 regional planning agencies, MARPA is the premier advocate for cities and towns to innovate in the delivery of municipal public services to collaborate across municipal and regional boundaries and to adopt planning best practices. Together, MARPA members provide support to all6038 351 cities and towns in the Commonwealth. In this work, we currently face two overlapping crises; a climate crisis and a housing crisis, both of which put the health and safety of our communities at risk, and both of which demand more resources than our communities currently have.
For instance, in the Pioneer Valley, we are short 19,000 affordable housing units by 2025. As these crises demand so much of both local and state government, it's imperative that we address them in tandem and bring both state and local resources to bear in addressing them. Rep Montano and Senator Eldridge's Bills would help to generate these statewide resources by bringing Massachusetts deed excise fee in line with those of our neighboring states and sharing that new revenue between statewide climate adaptation and mitigation and affordable housing efforts. This new revenue could support the expansion of successful existing programs, such as the municipal vulnerability preparedness program, enabling them to serve more6101 communities and accomplish more in the communities they already serve. For communities like mine, this could mean6107 additional funding for private dams and flooding. To ensure municipalities can keep up with local affordable housing needs, Representative Connolly and Senator's Comerford's Bills provide more resources locally by allowing cities and towns to establish a local transfer of up to 2% on certain real estate transactions. Allowing communities, this additional revenue resource to support affordable housing is critical at a time where residents struggle to find affordable housing even in historically less expensive gateway cities, such as Springfield. This tool is becoming increasingly popular in our region with Amherst having already filed a home rule petition and others contemplating the same. I urge you to report favorably on H 2894 S 1799 and H 2747 S 1771 to provide communities across our Commonwealth with these resources. Thank you very much.
MICHAEL KANE - MASS ALLIANCE OF HUD TENANTS - SB 1771 - HB 2747 - Thank you, Chair Cusack and Moran for letting us testify today. I'm Michael Kane, the director of the Mass Alliance of HUD tenants, we're a statewide tenant's organization representing low income tenants who saved and improve their homes. We've saved about 12,800 in the last 40 years, this is our fortieth anniversary. We helped to initiate the HERO Coalition some years ago in response to Governor Baker's proposal to increase the fee, which has not been raised in 50 years, the real estate transfer fee to bring it a little bit more in line with the surrounding states. It was registered our Murphy who suggested, he'll see that, and double it by, in adding housing as another need, so that's what formed the coalition. They're 45 or more organizations, many of them have already testified in support. I'm going to particularly talk about the need for housing and low income housing in particular. The fee would generate about $300,000,000 more a year for the state by doubling the fee, and as you heard from, registrar Murphy, the amount has not really changed, it actually was $600,000,000 two years ago and it's still at about $385,000,000 according to the numbers today despite the economy. So it's a lot of money as he put it that is being left on the table, half of that would go to housing, half through environment.
You'll hear from the environment panel later. On the housing side, that works out to $90,000,000 for the affordable housing trust fund and $60,000,000 for the housing preservation and stabilization fund, which is for extremely low income renters through the Mass rental voucher program and RAFT programs. The Bill includes a provision that allows the Governor to transfer money among those two priorities to meet particular needs in the Covid crisis atmosphere. So, we have a couple of people are gonna speak next who are from MRVP units. I'll just say that, there is a need of 240,000 additional MRVP according to the Boston Foundation and a consortium of groups, that would cost about $3,200,000,000 annually to meet. These are extremely low income people that are very rent burden paying 50, 60% of their income on rent now and they're being displaced. So we need to build toward that, this would be6375 a small step toward meeting that need. I submitted written testimony about an extent to which fees are being left on the table by giving an example of a building in the Seaport that was built for $150,000,000, by a Swedish company, sold a year later for $450,000,000 to a German company. If the fraction of that, there had been a doubling of the fee, it would have been, like, $9,000,000 just from that. So, you know, who cares? We should be getting that revenue that is being side stepped and it's billions and billions of dollars is in downtown Boston, commercial industrial and luxury housing that's being missed.
PAOLA PELLETIER-OZUNA - DORCHESTER BAY ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT CORPORATION - SB 1799 - HB 2894 - Thank you so much. Good afternoon. My name is Paola Pelletier-Ozuna, I am chief of staff at Dorchester Bay Economic Development Corporation and I'm here to testify on behalf of Dorchester Bay and also on behalf of our colleagues at the Massachusetts Association of Community Development Corporations, MACDC in support of Hero Bill, H 2894 S 1799, an act providing climate change adoption for infrastructure and affordable housing investments in the Commonwealth, also known as the Hero Bill. Any support of legislation that grants a local option for a real estate transfer fee to fund affordable housing. Dorchester Bay is a long standing proud member of MACDC, which represents all 63 certified CDCs in the Commonwealth as well as more than 35 other community based on profit organizations. MACDC and Dorchester Bay support the passage of the Hero Bill as this legislation offers an opportunity to address two acute related crises facing Massachusetts residents. A pervasive housing crisis that places affordable housing out of reach for too many of our neighbors and an existential climate crisis that is already threatening our communities. Both this crises disproportionately impact vulnerable communities, including low income and communities of color. Through a doubling of the state's excise tax, which will put us more in line with neighboring states, we can raise more than $300,000,000 each year, split between affordable housing and climate mitigation adaptation.
There are several Bills which would grant a local option for real estate transfer fee enabling any municipalities in Massachusetts, the option of adopting such fee. MACDC in particular supports these Bills providing that all the funds raised from the fees are dedicated to affordable housing, and there are exceptions for lower price, property transfers and the fees apply only to the amount of the transfer amount above the exception threshold. I want to speak about the shortage of quality affordable housing. We all know that the shortage of quality of affordable housing across Commonwealth in Uplam Skorner, in particular, where Dorchester Bay resides. This shortage hits dire on affordable runs threaten the stability of low income communities of color. In Uppam Scormer, nearly 90% of residents are people of color, and we are a large immigrant community. 1/3 of households in Uppam Scormer make less than 30% AMI and that's less than 30,600 for a family of three. Hero will provide essential funding to support programs, like the MRVP, to stabilize housing for low income renters in Upland's Corner and across the Commonwealth. Hero would also generate funding to support, between 3500 and 6500 new housing vouchers and construct to preserve 18,000. The importance of making funding more affordable for community based developers, like Dorchester Bay, which financing assembly financing in all ways and arduous process. All of our affordable housing projects are vital, worthy, but mission based developers are competing for limited resources. In a race to buy a small property to offset displacement due to unaffordable prices, in Oklahoma, scorner, and communities like hit, rents are increasingly unaffordable, and the pressure is mounting. Thank you for considering my testimony, and I humbly ask that you report the hero Bill out of committee favorably.
MATT NOYES - CITIZEN'S HOUSING AND PLANNING ASSOCIATION - SB 1799 - HB 2894 - Thank you, Chair Moran and Cusack. Thank you for sticking with us today. My name is Matt Noyes, I'm director of public policy for the Citizens Housing and Planning Association. CHAPA's mission is to encourage the production and preservation of homes that are affordable for people with low and moderate incomes and to foster diverse and sustainable communities through planning and community development. At CHAPA, we believe everyone should have a safe, healthy, accessible, and affordable home in a community that they choose. Housing is the single best investment we can make for the future of Massachusetts. The Commonwealth needs 200,000 new homes by 2030 to stabilize home prices and rents. To ensure that housing production grows for people across income levels, 40,000 of these new homes must be affordable for people with moderate incomes, and 20,000 of these homes must be deeply affordable for people with extremely low incomes. Investing state resources in affordable housing will ensure that new housing is produced for people with low incomes. It's imperative that the Commonwealth look to new revenue sources to make it possible to create the affordable housing we need.
As we know, we are at the tail end of ARPA funds which help bridge the gap in affordable housing production for the past few years but now we need to find new sustainable solutions to support the creation and preservation of affordable housing. Two options supported by CHAPA are before you today; the Hero Act and Bills giving local municipalities the option to establish real estate transfer fees, both approaches are important and should be given strong consideration by the committee. Under the Hero Act alone, bringing the state excise tax rate in line with those of others in the region, which support thousands of new housing vouchers, create or preserve nearly 20,000 units of affordable housing and provide flexibility to cover emergency assistance needs. Housing is the most important investment that we can make in the future of our Commonwealth. The stakes are high and the challenges are significant, you have before you today the opportunities to provide resources that will help us take major steps forward in making sure that everyone will have a safe, healthy, and accessible home in the community that they choose. CHAPA urges you to favorably report the Hero Act and local option real estate transfer fee Bills. SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
SPEAKER27 - And we have, 2 tenant leaders from MRVP Subla.
Okay.
KANE - I should also mention we also support the local option statewide Bill and all the local home rule petitions, including the one from Boston.
It's
SPEAKER22 - just a
SPEAKER27 - I'm gonna I've got Sabla Argo, who is from the Mercantile Wharf Tenant Association and David Noman from the Forbes Building Tennis Association. Glad to speak in
SPEAKER10 - I am on a.
SABLAN ARGO - MERCANTILE WHARF TENANT ASSOCIATION - SB 1799 - HB 2894 - Hi, my name is Sablan, I live on 11 Atlantic Avenue6856 Boston in the North end. I'm concerned about the housing crisis, if it was not for the tenant association, in Marcus Art, that area will be economically segregated place. No elderly person or low income people will be able to afford it. I urge you to support the MRVP program as well as the hero Bill, because it's extremely important. A country like the United States, very rich country, there should not be a problem, housing should not be an issue. And I believe housing is the right issue, and people are worrying so much about housing and concern, it affects their health, it's a universal issue. I know the housing crisis is all over the United States, and the nation, but a rich state like Massachusetts and Boston would not have to struggle to choose between housing and being homeless. So I urge you to support that Bill, and thank you for the opportunity.
DAVID NOLLMAN - FORBES BUILDING TENANT ASSOCIATION - SB 1799 - HB 2894 - My name is David Nollman, I live at the Forbes Building at, 545 Center Street in Jamaica Plain, and I am representing our tenant association. Our building is made up of mostly low income, disabled and elderly people, and without the MRVP provision of this Bill, we would all be on the street, we would all be homeless. We have 37 MRVP units that now exist and we are now seeking 67 more to achieve a mixed income goal and to prevent displacement for all these people. There are many more people, as I've heard today, across the state who are in the same situation that I am. So, I'm not going to repeat what everybody else said, the disadvantage to coming at the end of the day is that everybody's tired. The advantage is, I don't know what the advantage is, but I would7030 just like to ask you to support the hero Bill for all the other elderly, low income and, disabled people who are in the same situation that I am. SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
SPEAKER36 - You are you on the climate panel? No. Is that Ken Sweeter?
SPEAKER37 - I think was Kendra
SPEAKER16 - Weaver. Ah. Sorry.
SPEAKER14 - Yeah.
SPEAKER6 - Okay.
KENDRA BEAVER - FAIRMOUNT INDIGO CDC COLLABORATIVE - HB 2894 - SB 1799 - Thank you, Chair Moran, Chair Cusack and members of the joint committee for hearing my testimony today. My name is Kendra Beaver, and I am the Climate Justice coordinator for the Fairmount Indigo CDC Collaborative or FICC. We are an umbrella organization of three boss and based community development corporations, which serve the neighborhoods united by the Fairmount commuter line. We are also a proud member of the Hero Coalition. As someone who works closely with low to moderate income communities and communities of color who are disproportionately impacted by the climate crisis and by the lack of affordable housing in Massachusetts, I am testifying on behalf of FICC today in support of H 2894 and S 1799, an act providing for climate change adaptation infrastructure and affordable housing investments in the Commonwealth, fondly known as the Hero Bill. As you know, the revenue raised from the hero Bill would be split 50-50 between housing and climate. I would like to give you an overview of the climate half of the revenue and the impact it could have on communities across the Commonwealth, especially those in most need. The climate portion of revenue from the Hero Bill would be deposited into the Global Warming Solutions Trust Fund. This would allow the executive office of Energy and Environmental Affairs, which oversees the trust fund to allocate dollars across a wide range of climate related investments addressing both climate mitigation and adaptation action steps identified in the, Massachusetts Clean Energy and Climate Plan, the CECP.
The alignment of Hero Climate Revenue with the CECP ensures that the projects funded by Hero support comprehensive strategies that have been well researched and allows for future investments to be flexible as we continue to experience exactly how climate change impacts the Commonwealth and adjust the implementation of the CECP accordingly. We've seen the intensifying effects of climate change in our state recently, such as the dangerous and destructive flash floods in Leominster last month, Boston recording its hottest 30 day stretch in history in the summer of 2022, and the smoke from unprecedented wildfires in Canada traveling South to pollute our air. Climate change will have the greatest effect on Massachusetts environmental justice communities who do not otherwise have the resources to fully prepare. If we don't support these communities in their efforts to ensure their neighborhoods are resilient and keep residents safe and healthy, they are unlikely to be able to fund these efforts on their own. Acknowledging this, we intentionally drafted the language of the hero Bill to state that, priority shall be given to investments in environmental justice communities, and we left the language broad to allow for investments to be made where and how they are most needed. The revenue generated by the Hero Bill would be essential to supporting the critical efforts needed to protect all Massachusetts residents and especially those who are most at risk from climate change. Thank you for your time, I respectfully request that you report the Hero Bill out favorably.
ALI HIPLE - CONSERVATION LAW FOUNDATION - HB 2894 - SB 1799 - Thank you, Chairs, Moran, and Cusack, members of the committee. My name is Ali Hiple, I'm a policy analyst with the Conservation Law Foundation. CLF is also a member of the Hero Coalition, and I am testifying in support of H 2894 and S 1799, an act providing for climate change adaptation infrastructure and affordable housing investments in the Commonwealth. As we've heard lots of testimony on already today, Massachusetts is grappling with the dual crises of housing affordability and climate change. One of, if not, the biggest challenges in addressing these crises is the lack of consistent and sustainable revenue to support critical investments. While this Bill will support necessary investments in both mitigation and adaptation, I want to specifically emphasize how critical the need is funding for the state's climate adaptation and resilience efforts in particular. Massachusetts has made great strides on climate mitigation efforts and must continue to do so, but far less action has been taken in terms of adaptation. Both mitigation and adaptations efforts are woefully underfunded, and in many cases, are often pitted against each other for the limited funding that is available. Creating a stable revenue stream to fund these investments will allow us to move forward with state level efforts and build out and implement a long-term strategy rather than being active as funding becomes available or relying predominantly on federal funding. The center for climate integrity as estimates that Massachusetts will need at least $18,700,000,000 to mount even short-term defenses against climate change impacts like rising seas, heavy rainfall, extreme temperatures, and storms.
We've been experiencing these threats already, this summer was the second rainiest on record, and October has already had record high temperatures. The recent September floods cost tens of millions of dollars in damages from multiple places across Massachusetts. Cities and towns across the Commonwealth and not just coastal areas have acknowledged the risks that climate change poses to their communities and many are already actively planning for and implementing climate resilience projects. I was glad to hear from the Pioneer Valley Planning Commission about how they could spend this money. The municipal vulnerability preparedness program or MVP program provides critical funding and support to address this very issue. It supports cities and towns in planning for climate change resilience in implementing priority projects. As of the end of 2022, the program has provided more than a $100,000,000 in action grants, and nearly every community in Massachusetts has completed at least an initial MVP preparedness plan. But the current funding level of this program is just a drop in the bucket of what's needed for both the short and long term, and the Hero Bill would help fund this. Other programs are needed too, we currently do not have mechanisms or funding to support resilience retrofitting for the Commonwealth housing stock, and you've heard from others about what is needed in terms of affordable housing and climate mitigation efforts, all of which are desperately needed and which this Bill will help fund. I respectfully request that you report this important Bill out favorably. Thank you.
HESSANN FAROOQI - BOSTON CLIMATE ACTION NETWORK - HB 2894 - SB 1799 - Thank you so much, Chair Moran, and Chair Cusack and members of the committee. My name is Hessann Farooqi, I'm the advocate director for the Boston Climate Action Network, and we're a member of the Coalition, and I join my colleagues in testifying in support of this Bill. Now you might be wondering why are we talking about housing and environment together? Did we just like Frankenstein our priorities together into this one Bill? No, these are absolutely connected issues. We know we have to address climate change and reduce our emissions and when we look at all of the greenhouse gas emissions statewide, 35% of those are coming from buildings. In Boston, it's twice that. Now a lot of those buildings are homes and so we need to make sure we retrofit and renovate all of these different homes in addition to building great new homes, and that's going to cost some money. But the last thing we want is for the cost of that to fall onto tenants in the form of higher rent because we cannot address one crisis of climate change by furthering another crisis of housing because we know that the people who will suffer first and worst from the effects of climate change are also the people who need affordable housing the most. So we need these priorities to be addressed simultaneously, and for that, we need recurring revenue, which this Bill provides. So, I appreciate your time, and we really urge you to support these Bills because they're very important.
DANIEL ZACKIN - 350 MASSACHUSETTS - HB 2894 - SB 1799 - Hello, and thank you for this opportunity to testify before the committee. My name is Daniel Zackin, and I am here today to represent 350 Mass, a statewide network of hundreds of climate activists. Our members are proud to stand with the housing and climate advocates of the Hero Coalition in support of S 1799 and H 2894. After months of extreme weather ranging from flooding to air pollution to heat waves, we must act now to reduce our emissions and prepare communities for the7597 worst climate impacts that are still to come. This Bill will establish a continuing revenue stream to fund affordable7603 housing and building decarbonization reducing one of the largest sources of carbon pollution in the state. It is predicted to approximately double the state's spending on low-income weatherization, protecting our most vulnerable communities from extreme weather. The Bill is structured to ensure flexibility for the executive office of Energy and Environmental affairs as they administer the funds and respond to changing need over the next 30 years. The EEA could choose to transfer some of this money to the Massachusetts Clean Energy Center or other intermediaries responsible for implementing clean energy programs or initiatives.
In spending these funds, the EEA should adhere to the state's climate action plan and align investments with other funding streams such as utility funded energy efficiency programs. This flexibility could allow for new approaches that target environmental justice communities directly engage those communities and open the door to innovation with new technologies like ground source heat pumps. The Bill also provides essential funding for climate adaptation and resilience, the predicted amount more than doubles the current annual state expenditure on the homes of low-income families. Our most vulnerable communities across the state are deeply prepared for climate impacts, from extreme temperature fluctuations to air pollution. The continuing funding provided will allow communities to not just survive the coming impacts but to reduce the cost of living, increase comfort, and gain significant health benefits. This Bill is a chance to build a safer and more affordable Commonwealth that prioritizes the well-being of our most vulnerable residents. Thank you for your time, and I urge you to report the Bill out favorably. SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
SPEAKER1 - Thank you, Dan. Any comments or questions? Seeing that. Thank you all.
Kent Sweeder.
KEN SWEDER - GREATER BOSTON INTERFAITH ORGANIZATION - HB 2747 - SB 1771 - Thank you, Chair's Moran and Cusack, and other members of the committee for having given me the opportunity to be here today. My name is Ken Sweder, I'm here to testify on behalf of the Greater Boston Interfaith Organization, GBIO in support of House 2747 and Senate 1771, the real estate transfer fee enabling legislation. The Greater Boston Interfaith Organization is a nonpartisan interfaith, multi rational organization made up of over 60 dues paying member institutions, representing over 107,000 people. As an organization dedicated for over 20 years to making a greater Boston, a better place for all to live and thrive, one of our greatest concerns and highest priorities today is to help resolve the housing crisis, which we heard so much about today in Greater Boston and throughout the Commonwealth. We see the adoption of the enabling legislation as a local option, as a potential game changer. You've heard a lot of testimony today, I appreciate your patience, I appreciate your being here. Maybe one thing that I can add to the excellent testimony today is to emphasize support for such legislation, the enabling legislation, the real estate transfer fee enabling legislation is very, very deep and wide. On June 26th of this year, the GBIO held an event in Boston to kick off our housing justice action campaign, of which the real estate transfer fee Bills are a major part. We brought out 1400 people in arousing support of that campaign. In addition to the Lieutenant Governor, the Secretary of housing, Mayor Wu, and a number of legislators, we also had speaking on behalf of the real estate transfer fee, one of the state's largest real estate developers as well as the state's largest employer, Mass General Brigham.
The employers in so many communities are extremely interested and supportive of the real estate transfer fee. The day after that event on June 27th, the Boston Globe wrote an editorial, quoting GBIO's executive director saying the real estate transfer fee is a no brainer tool, we can put in the toolbox to address the housing crisis. We believe it's a no brainer tool because a local7935 option under this legislation gives our cities and towns the option to adopt a transfer fee or not,7947 to adopt higher thresholds so7949 that only high end transactions are subject to the fees, to exempt certain transactions such as those involving family members, seniors, and first time home buyers and any number of the exemptions, as well as the options to use proceeds from the transfer fees in any number of ways best fitted to their own communities. I will say that I think that what options and7985 how to use especially what options and what to exempt is something which is best left to the communities themselves and not to the Real Estate Associations. The Globe editorial concluded that communities like Boston that are begging for the power to help solve their own affordability crises should get it from the legislature. 38 States, DC, and many local governments throughout the country charged some kind of a transfer fee on real estate transactions, we strongly believe that our Massachusetts cities and towns should have that option. I respectfully ask for you to report out and for your support for the passage of H 2747 and Senate 1771, and, again, thank you for your patience and your service, and hanging in all day. SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
SPEAKER1 - Thank you, Ken. Any comments or questions? See you, Nunn. Thank you, Ken. Next up is, Watertown City consulate, Caroline Bayes.
SPEAKER41 - Alright.
CAROLINE BAYS - WATERTOWN CITY COUNCIL - HB 2894 - SB 1799 - Thank you. I'm Caroline Bays, I'm a city councilor in Watertown, and I'm here to testify on the Hero Bill, H 2894 and S 1799. So, thank you to the Chairs and to everybody who is still here, I have got to give credit to this particular group of people because you have stayed longer than a lot of other committees in my experience. So, I've been a Watertown City councilor for six years, and, over the last few years, several things have become clear. First of all, the housing crisis has really affected our town in a way that I don't think I would have anticipated when I first became a councilor. I knew it was a problem, but I knock doors and I listened to people crying because they're going to have to move out. Our town has completely changed neighborhoods the way that, you know, we kind of joke that we have now become West Cambridge because our East Watertown is now West Cambridge. When we say crisis, you know, we use it a lot, but it really is a crisis and we need the funds. You know, our $200,000,000 budget do not have the funds to deal with that alone, we really need help from the state, which is why I'm supporting both of these Bills. I'm here to testify for the Hero Bill, but I'm also on the LOHA Coalition.
So, this is a true emergency, we need to pull out all the stops and really raise the funds that our towns and cities need to address these issues. The crisis emergency, I know you all know that it's an emergency. The city of Watertown has just passed a climate action plan, it's a pretty aggressive plan and it's going to cost money for us to implement. There's some easy things that we can do and that we'll be able to afford but when we start addressing some of the bigger things that we have to do, like retrofit all of the municipal buildings to make them8224 green, changing over8226 our entire fleet of fire trucks and everything as soon as we can to make them green, this is a lot of money we're talking about, and we're going to need help, and this is a source of the funding that we could have access to that could help us get to where we need to be to address these issues. So, thank you very much for hearing my testimony, I appreciate it, and I appreciate you all staying. SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
SPEAKER1 - Thank you, counselor. Any comments or questions?
SPEAKER6 - Canceled.
PAULINO - Thank you for being here today. Did you tell the city apply for any subsidy from the government office? And right now, we have a team prepared, like, $246,000,000 for affordable housing and many communities across the state applied for, do your city have a plan for it?
BAYS - Yes, we apply for everything; we apply for grants, we apply for, you know,8295 this is very expensive, the issues that we're talking about and the crisis that we're in, this is not something that can be easily addressed by a couple million dollars, we're talking a lot of money is going to have to be poured into dealing with this. Does anyone here know Russo's? I don't know if you're local enough to know it?
SEN MORAN - The candy place?
BAYS - It was a place that everybody in Watertown went to and was just sold, so it is now out of business. It was our fruit and vegetable market and it was just sold. They kept saying, please buy it, buy it, buy it, $40,000,000. We have a $195,000,000 budget; we cannot afford a $40,000,000 piece of land. So, we're talking a lot of money here to address this problem, and that's why I'm saying we need both, we need LOHA and Hero because we've got8358 a crisis. I mean, when we say crisis, we mean emergency truly a crisis.
PAULINO - So to eradicate or minimize or diminish the need of more affordable housing installations, so we need more money to tax not only to get more resources, you need involvement of private developers, and for developers to be able to construct to build those 200 something dollars a unit that we need before 2030. The zoning of each town needs to make changes to allow those new projects to be built. Has8403 your city have done something about it, about the zoning, allowing multi-unit properties be built where before they couldn't?
BAYS - Please up zone my house. I know this is revenue, so you're not responsible for that, I am ready to have my house up zoned. I am a single-family house zoned house. I totally agree with you, we need to not only get the money, but also create the zoning so that we can start to create the kind of housing that we're going to need, totally agree with you on that. SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
SPEAKER1 - Thank you, Council. Sarah Horsley.
Once, twice. Alright. Angela D'varrus.
Hi. How are you?
SPEAKER19 - Get more. I asked him for less.
I'm not about to fix the housing crisis, but something.
SPEAKER12 - Of arts. I'm in the training
SPEAKER19 - with rear box and remote services low-income tax-free clinic. And spoke 2017, as the 4th amendment section, 37,000,000 of chapter 62
ANGELA DIVARIS - GREATER BOSTON LEGAL SERVICES - HB 2760 - SB 1864 - What this Bill is doing is changing the offer and compromise procedure in the state of Massachusetts. I'm sure you've seen the commercial's lately, and it's on the doc, if you8517 owe the IRS, come to us and we'll erase your debt. These are pretty much scam artist who prey on vulnerable people who are in debt. But there is a process, both at the federal level and the state level, to settle debts when you can't pay them off. So, in my work, we see taxpayers who are stressed, they might be individuals, families, small businesses, they owe more than they can pay. There is a process for these folks to seek some relief, and why would you want to do that? Is it fair if the tax that's been assessed to let that person pay the less? Well, there are multiple reasons why you would want to do it. One is I'll get back to how I started, you get8573 more by asking for less and there are IRS studies showing that8579 if you grant offers and compromise, these taxpayers end up being reintegrated into the economy and long term, the company wide. If you don't grant their offer, the debts pretty much become uncollectable and there are studies showing that a debt of three years or more, you're never going to get that. So, what you have when you don't have these procedures is uncollectible debts that just stay on the state books forever. So, I'll ask you a question, who do you think is easier to deal with in terms of negotiating the IRS or the state? I'll give you another question that's a hint; how many offers do you think were accepted in Massachusetts in 2019? Nine, and in 21, another nine.
It's really not a system that works, it's not a procedure that's transparent, it doesn't work for8643 taxpayers, it doesn't work for the8645 state. So, I'll give you a couple of examples of taxpayers that I have worked with. So I had somebody who had worked 30 years in the job, gets wrongfully fired, becomes completely depressed, had been used8659 to being the breadwinner for his family and lied to them about still having his job, borrows from everybody's and pretends to go to work. Somewhere, he gets a lawyer, and he actually wins his settlements, he gets $40,000 from that employer. He just wanted his job, he didn't the money, but the lawyer said, take the money because they're just going to bully you again. He didn't realize that because he had always been on his employee-based insurance that he was referred to the premium to the health connector, and he was getting premium tax credit. So, when he filed his taxes, he got a $10,000 bill. This is a guy who is retirement age,8704 whose wife is a part time teacher's aide for autistic kids, who makes 300 bucks a week because he just wants to work cleaning, because he wants to get out of the house, he's got a $10,000 debt. He's insisting, I never even went to a doctor, I don't even get sick. So, it doesn't matter, that money went to your insurance company. We did an offer with the IRS, and we offered them 300 bucks and they took, he was speechless because he was so used to just being kicked around that when I told him they took it, he couldn't speak because he had his speech about how life was unfair. I'm like, no, they took it because it wasn't fair. In fact, when I did his application, I put two bases down, one that he couldn't afford it, just look at it, you have to go through a very in-depth analysis, it's nothing like what they make it out on TV. He didn't have enough at the end of the month, and I also added, it's not in the interests of the country, it's called effective tax administration, that it's not right to make this guy pay this money.
The IRS agent called me and said, you have to pick one. So, I was sort of new at this because I started during Covid, and I asked what do you mean I have to pick one? You have to pick one, so I picked he can't afford it. She granted it on the other one, on the effective tax. I mean, it's just not right to this guy, and during Covid, he did actually suspend those, but his is one year before. I can't do that with this thing. Now we've got another guy, he had decades of Pizzeria in Somerville. His wife died, he's got four kids in school, a couple with, certain special needs, and he gives his pizzeria over to his brother-in-law who runs it to the ground, and it just closes, and then he gets hit with a $30,000 tax bill now. He's also a retirement age, it wasn't his fault, but his name was on it. There's nothing I8837 can do with that because though there's no statute of limitations on those taxes, he had discharged them because they're trustee taxes, he can't just charge them in bankruptcy. He wants to drive a van, taking autistic kids to school, and he loves it, and he is so worried that they are going to take away his wages, and he's right. Because the other thing, if I'm going to talk to the state, I have to pony up $5000. They're not going to talk to you if you don't have $5000. So, I would really urge you to support this Bill, it might not be the biggest thing on your plate, but I think it would help alleviate some suffering. It would reincorporate, reintegrate delinquent taxpayers, they become part of the community again. It's a successful federal program, the IRS doesn't do it because they're nice.8891 Pre 92, they did it, they have a workup of program and, Massachusetts Department of Revenue has a program for its taxpayers, they just don't have flexibility to do what is needed.
MORAN - In my head, I gave you a standing Ovation, this is plenty of work. Thank you.
DIVARIS - Thank you so much. I just talked about this morning, I was talking about it, it's quite nice. But I really believe that we could do a lot on the state level to help taxpayers. Sometimes people's eyes glaze over when they hear it but there's lot of suffering out there for people who will never be able to pay this money, ever. And what's the interest to the state of just keeping these debts on the books?
MORAN - Now, both of these guys are paying their taxes,8942 so that's the other issue.
DIVARIS - Well, the state8944 guy still needs help, he needs your8946 help because I can't do anything, the other guy is good.8950 Also, there's in8952 the Bills you're required, just as in the federal program, you're required to have compliance going forward. So, it increases revenue even going for it, not just for that particular year. Thank you.
PAULINO - Well, being a tax lawyer, I can tell you I totally agree with8979 you, the process of an offer settlement when the system is broken, it's not viable. If you apply for offering compromise, the IRS, for any debt to the government, it can be in taxes, it can be for economic disaster, it's a streamlined line system and very efficient. And it may take almost a year to get a response from the department. And, also, it's very unlikely that you get approved, and then they have to polish. I didn't like this proposal, I think it would bring more people to the system, we won't be able to collect more revenue because they're going to be back, they're going to be formal employees again. If they had kids, they had child support, they'd be able to pay the child support and get their license again. So, I like this business legislation, I think it would be a regulatory, you9043 know, build that come up also. We help people to be compliance.
DIVARIS - And take something from theory and makes it actually exist in practice, so we did do our job. SHOW NON-ESSENTIAL DIALOGUE
SPEAKER12 - Thank you very much.
SPEAKER1 - Thank you. That is everyone I have signed up to testify. Is there anyone else here that wishes to testify virtually or in person?
K. Hearing none. I'll understand a motion. Motion to adjourn. Is there a second? Second. All those in favor say9073 aye? Aye? Well, let us know the ice Abbott today's9075 hearing is adjourned.
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