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4/2/25, 10:00 AM - Committee Hearing: Rules, State House Room 222

Status: Normal
Date/Time: 4/2/25 10:00 AM
Location: State House Room 222
Committee: Senate Committee on Rules (SRU)
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The Senate Subcommittee on Chapter 250 of the Acts of 2024 will conduct a hearing in Room 222, on Wednesday, April 2, 2025, from 10:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m. 

The Subcommittee will hear invited testimony from experienced professionals and subject matter experts on certain legal and practical considerations related to the implementation of Chapter 250 of the Acts of 2024. Specifically, the Subcommittee will hear testimony on: (i) the current constitutionality of an audit of the Legislature conducted pursuant to Chapter 250 of the Acts of 2024; and (ii) Generally Accepted Government Auditing Standards (“GAGAS”).

The public is also invited to participate in this hearing. Advanced registration to present oral testimony is required of anyone other than the experts and professionals already invited. Please note that any member of the public who registers to give testimony must limit their remarks to the specific subject matter of the hearing: (i) the current constitutionality of an audit of the Legislature conducted pursuant to Chapter 250 of the Acts of 2024 and (ii) GAGAS. Those wishing to register to testify may do so by e-mailing Elizabeth Berman at Elizabeth.Berman@masenate.gov. The deadline to register is Monday, March 31 at 5:00 PM. Please include your name, address, and whether your testimony is on behalf of yourself or an organization. Participation will be limited as the portion of the hearing dedicated to public testimony is scheduled for 60 minutes. Should more people register than time can accommodate, they will be directed to submit written testimony.

The Subcommittee Chair will limit testimony of the public to 3 minutes per speaker. Please be advised that the schedule and agenda are subject to change at the discretion of the Chair.

Written testimony can be submitted to the Subcommittee via e-mail at Elizabeth.Berman@masenate.gov. The deadline to submit written testimony is Friday, April 4 at 5:00 PM.

The livestream of this hearing will be available on the Legislature's website here.

You may contact Subcommittee staff with any questions at Elizabeth.Berman@masenate.gov.


04/02/2025 - Subcommittee on chapter 250 of the acts of 2024
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Transcript
This transcript is in the process of being edited, fully edited transcript to follow.
SEN3.2 FRIEDMAN3.2 -3.2 I3.2 am3.44 Senator3.68 Cindy4.16 Friedman,4.48 Chair4.96 of5.2 the5.36 subcommittee.5.52 Joining6.88 me7.28 today7.52 are7.84 my8 colleagues,8.24 Senator8.64 Will9.12 Brownsberger9.36 of10.08 Belmont,10.24 Senator11.04 Joe11.6 Comerford11.84 of12.32 Northampton,12.48 and13.12 Senator13.36 Paul13.84 Feeney14.16 of14.72 Foxborough.14.96 The17.26 purpose17.5 of17.82 this17.89 hearing18.14 is18.54 to18.61 elicit18.86 testimony19.34 from19.89 experts20.14 in20.61 the20.77 fields20.86 of21.26 constitutional21.5 law22.38 and22.94 auditing23.26 procedures23.82 as24.38 it24.54 applies24.7 to25.18 the25.34 proposed25.49 audit26.05 request26.45 of26.86 the27.02 Massachusetts27.26 legislature27.98 by29.02 the29.26 office29.41 of29.82 the29.98 State30.45 Auditor.31.5 I'd31.5 like31.74 to31.9 begin31.98 this32.46 hearing32.7 by33.02 setting33.18 the33.5 context33.74 in34.14 which34.3 the34.62 hearing34.7 will35.1 be35.26 conducted35.42 and36.3 also36.54 around37.42 how37.74 we37.98 will38.22 proceed.38.38 As39.9 many40.14 of40.46 you40.62 know,40.78 in41.1 November41.34 2024,42.22 the43.1 voters43.34 of43.66 the43.82 Commonwealth43.98 approved44.54 ballot45.02 question45.42 one,45.82 an46.62 initiative46.86 petition47.34 to47.82 add48.05 the48.3 legislature48.45 to49.09 the49.26 list49.41 of49.66 entities49.9 that50.94 may51.18 be51.34 audited51.58 per52.05 statute52.38 by52.86 the53.02 office53.18 of53.5 the53.66 State54.14 Auditor.55.09 The55.09 statutory55.34 change55.98 took56.38 effect56.62 on57.02 01/03/2025.57.34 On60.14 that60.38 date,60.54 Auditor61.42 DiZaglio62.14 sent62.14 correspondence62.54 to63.26 the63.42 Senate63.58 and63.9 House64.06 initiating64.54 an65.18 audit65.34 of65.82 each65.98 legislative66.46 chamber.67.58
69.66 In69.66 her69.82 audit70.14 initiation70.62 letter,71.34 the72.14 Auditor73.42 stated73.82 that74.14 the74.38 scope74.62 of74.94 the75.1 audit75.18 would76.11 cover76.34 all76.83 the77.15 topics77.39 the77.87 auditor's78.11 office78.67 was79.15 unable79.7 to80.11 fully80.27 review80.58 in81.55 its81.7 previous81.94 audit82.51 of82.98 the83.15 legislature83.39 in84.11 2024.84.34 The86.75 202486.98 audit88.03 was88.34 a88.51 financial88.67 audit89.26 conducted89.58 by90.06 the90.3 office90.46 of90.86 the90.94 State91.42 Auditor92.06 using92.06 information92.54 from93.26 publicly93.5 available94.22 and94.7 posted94.94 financial95.5 audits96.06 that96.94 are97.1 conducted97.34 by97.98 outside98.3 independent99.02 auditing99.66 firms100.14 for100.86 each101.1 legislative101.5 body102.14 on102.7 a102.86 yearly102.94 basis.103.42 The104.81 Auditor104.97 stated105.44 at105.84 different106.01 times106.41 that111.61 all111.84 topics113.84 would114.73 include,114.97 but115.37 not115.61 be115.84 limited116.01 to116.48 a116.81 performance116.97 audit117.61 of117.92 core118.17 workings118.41 of118.89 the118.97 legislature,119.13 such120.2 as120.44 how120.6 and120.92 to121.08 what121.24 extent121.4 the121.8 legislature121.96 is122.68 ensuring122.92 an123.4 equitable123.56 mode124.12 of124.44 making124.52 laws,124.92 what125.48 bills125.72 are126.12 taken126.2 up126.52 in126.68 what126.84 order,127.16 how127.48 committee127.72 memberships128.12 and128.68 chairmanships128.92 are129.56 determined,129.72 whether130.76 and131.08 to131.24 what131.4 extent131.64 legislative132.28 policies132.92 and133.48 procedures133.64 are134.66 being134.81 equitably135.22 applied135.85 to136.17 members,136.33 etcetera.136.89 In138.25 other138.41 words,138.66 all139.22 aspects139.53 of140.01 the140.17 core140.41 workings140.66 of141.13 the141.22 legislature141.45 and142.17 how142.41 it142.57 conducts142.73 its143.22 business.143.45
144.81 On144.81 01/06/2025,145.06 the146.89 Senate147.06 established147.45 this148.09 subcommittee148.33 to149.34 consider149.5 the150.06 constitutional150.46 and151.58 procedural151.82 issues152.54 raised152.94 by153.26 the153.42 ballot153.58 question153.9 and154.46 the154.7 office154.86 of155.18 the155.34 State155.82 Auditor's156.38 proposed156.38 audit.156.86 The158.14 subcommittee158.38 entered159.1 unchartered159.42 territory160.14 given160.7 that161.02 what161.26 the161.5 Auditor161.66 is162.14 requesting162.38 and162.94 how163.18 she163.42 is163.66 requesting163.82 it164.3 is164.93 without165.08 precedent165.65 in166.04 the166.21 Commonwealth166.36 or167 anywhere167.25 in167.72 the167.88 country.168.04 Since169.25 the169.49 subcommittee169.65 was170.28 established,170.6 we171.08 have171.25 been171.41 unable171.65 to172.21 ascertain172.36 what173.88 the174.21 office174.36 of174.69 the174.84 State175.32 Auditor175.81 proposed175.81 audit176.44 or176.76 audits177 would177.56 actually177.81 include.178.44 While180.09 the180.33 office180.49 of180.73 the180.89 State181.37 Auditor's181.93 answers181.93 with182.89 respect183.13 to183.53 the183.69 audit183.85 scope184.17 have184.65 been184.89 inconsistent,185.21 we186.41 must186.65 still186.89 determine187.21 whether187.77 such188.09 an188.33 audit188.49 is188.97 permitted189.21 under190.09 the190.33 Massachusetts190.65 Constitution,192.17 including193.45 Article194.17 30.194.73 Additionally,196.15 the196.87 office197.03 of197.34 the197.5 State197.99 Auditor198.39 has198.39 stated198.63 its199.03 intention199.26 of200.15 using200.31 the200.63 generally200.87 accepted201.5 government202.06 auditing202.63 standards,203.19 GAGAS204.31 or205.34 the205.59 yellow205.83 book206.22 as206.87 its207.11 guideline207.34 for207.91 the208.06 proposed208.22 audits,208.87 which209.66 raises209.9 a210.46 series210.62 of210.94 questions211.18 regarding211.74 the212.14 yellow212.38 book212.7 standards213.1 for213.66 bias,213.82 conflicts214.78 of215.18 interest,215.42 and216.06 how216.3 the216.54 audit216.78 would217.1 proceed.217.34
219.66 The219.66 subcommittee219.9 met220.62 with220.86 the221.02 office221.18 of221.5 the221.66 State222.06 Auditor222.62 on222.62 February222.78 11th223.39 to224.06 seek224.22 answers224.54 to224.99 these225.15 questions225.47 along226.43 with226.82 the226.99 questions227.15 of227.71 constitutionality228.03 and229.38 followed229.71 up230.1 this230.5 meeting230.75 in231.54 writing231.78 to232.26 that232.43 office232.75 regarding233.22 the233.63 outstanding233.87 issues234.5 from235.15 that235.38 meeting.235.63 The236.66 subsequent236.91 response237.54 from238.08 the238.24 office238.4 of238.56 the238.88 State239.28 Auditor239.92 continued239.92 to240.32 leave240.48 unresolved240.96 this242 subcommittee's242.24 questions243.12 related243.76 to244.16 constitutionality,244.56 scope,246.24 and246.88 bias.247.12 This248.4 hearing248.64 is249.04 being249.28 held249.52 in249.84 order250.08 to250.48 gather250.64 information251.04 on251.76 these251.92 unresolved252.4 issues253.12 so254 that254.16 this254.24 subcommittee254.64 can255.28 produce255.51 a255.92 reasoned,256.15 informed,256.8 and257.36 well257.6 researched258 report.258.56 This260.15 subcommittee260.48 of261.04 the261.19 Senate261.36 is261.83 charged262.07 with263.19 determining263.51 if264.24 the264.48 office264.71 of265.04 the265.19 State265.68 Auditor's266.24 audit266.24 can266.77 be267.01 conducted267.25 consistent267.89 with268.45 the268.69 constitution268.85 of269.57 the269.73 Commonwealth,269.81 and270.77 if271.01 so,271.33 would272.29 be272.61 done272.69 using273.09 the273.41 best273.57 practices273.89 of274.53 auditing.274.69 In275.89 the276.05 Senate,276.29 we276.85 conduct277.01 the277.49 business277.65 of278.05 this278.13 legislative278.45 chamber279.09 through279.81 the280.05 committee280.21 process.280.69
281.86 As282.01 part282.01 of282.33 that282.5 process,282.74 we283.46 hold283.69 hearings284.01 to284.5 seek284.74 information285.06 to286.25 instruct286.5 and287.06 guide287.21 our287.62 work,287.77 most288.33 especially288.65 on289.54 important289.77 questions290.33 of291.13 constitutional291.46 powers.292.33 The293.71 speakers293.95 you294.27 will294.43 hear294.67 today294.91 are295.47 considered295.71 experts296.43 in296.83 their297.07 field297.23 and297.87 represent298.19 a298.75 spectrum299.07 of299.63 opinions299.87 on300.43 the300.59 issues300.75 we301.23 have301.39 identified.301.71 The303.07 subcommittee303.31 invited304.11 the304.59 office304.75 of305.07 the305.23 State305.71 Auditor306.19 to306.19 recommend306.43 speakers306.99 for307.39 today's307.63 hearing,308.49 but309.29 the309.69 office309.76 of310.17 the310.32 State310.81 Auditor311.76 declined.311.76 Specifically314.25 today,314.81 the315.29 subcommittee315.53 will316.09 hear316.25 testimony316.49 on317.37 the317.85 current318 constitutionality318.65 of320.25 an320.4 audit320.65 of320.81 the320.81 legislature320.82 conducted320.82 pursuant320.83 to320.84 Chapter324.58 250324.82 of324.82 the324.94 Acts325.06 of325.14 2024,325.46 and327.06 generally327.38 accepted327.78 government328.5 auditing328.98 standards,329.46 GAGAS.330.34 We332.74 plan332.98 to333.3 have333.62 the333.7 hearing333.94 divided334.18 into334.9 three335.22 parts.335.54 First,336.54 testimony337.19 from337.82 invited338.14 experienced338.7 professionals339.43 and340.06 subject340.31 matter340.63 experts341.02 on341.99 constitutional342.22 law343.26 and343.75 state343.99 government.344.38
345.9 Second,345.9 testimony346.54 from347.26 invited347.5 experienced348.06 professionals348.87 and349.5 subject349.66 matter350.14 experts350.54 on351.42 government351.66 auditing352.22 standards.352.86 Third,354.22 testimony355.1 from355.9 members356.06 of356.54 the356.7 public356.86 that357.42 have357.66 preregistered.357.98 The360.06 subcommittee360.22 posted361.02 a361.42 public361.58 hearing361.9 notice362.3 on362.94 the363.1 legislature's363.18 website364.06 on364.62 Tuesday,364.86 March365.34 25th365.84 with366.9 directions367.31 on367.94 how368.19 members368.43 of368.9 the369.06 republic369.14 could369.94 register370.26 to370.9 provide370.99 testimony.371.46 The372.99 original373.31 deadline373.7 to374.26 pre374.43 register374.75 was375.23 5:00375.55 PM376.26 on376.26 Monday,376.5 March376.9 31st.377.51 The378.43 subcommittee378.58 extended379.46 that379.94 registration380.19 deadline380.99 a381.73 full381.89 24382.05 hours382.77 to383.17 5:00384.45 PM385.01 on385.01 Tuesday,385.17 April386.21 1st,386.62 which387.09 was387.25 yesterday.387.49 With388.93 no389.17 members389.41 of389.81 the389.97 public390.13 having390.53 preregistered,390.93 we391.81 encourage392.05 any392.61 members392.93 of393.33 the393.49 public393.57 who393.97 wishes394.21 to394.69 have394.85 their395.49 comments395.81 recorded396.58 on396.99 the397.23 current397.38 constitutionality397.94 of399.31 an399.46 audit399.7 of400.02 the400.11 legislature400.35 conducted401.55 pursuant402.19 to402.67 Chapter403.63 250404.35 of404.35 the404.5 Acts404.75 of405.06 2024405.31 or406.99 the407.31 generally407.55 accepted408.11 government408.75 auditing409.23 standards,409.87 GAGAS,410.58 to412.11 please412.35 submit412.91 written413.47 testimony413.87 to414.91 the415.07 subcommittee415.23 by416.43 Friday,416.59 April417.23 4th417.63 at418.03 5:00418.19 PM.420.19
420.19 Shortly,420.19 we420.67 will420.83 invite421.07 the421.39 experienced421.63 professionals422.27 and422.83 subject422.99 matter423.47 experts423.87 up424.44 one424.69 by424.85 one425.08 to425.4 present425.56 testimony.426.13 After427.25 each427.56 provides427.88 their428.37 testimony,428.6 there429.32 will429.56 be429.72 an429.88 opportunity430.13 for430.85 the431.08 subcommittee431.25 members431.96 to432.6 ask432.85 questions.433.08 We434.2 ask434.44 that434.76 any435 audience435.4 members435.88 and436.7 members436.94 of437.58 the437.66 committee,437.82 please438.86 silence439.18 their439.66 devices439.9 and440.46 keep440.7 any440.94 questions441.26 they441.9 may442.14 have442.3 for442.86 the443.1 invited443.26 testifiers443.82 to444.86 written445.1 testimony,445.5 which,446.22 again,446.54 the447.34 subcommittee447.58 will448.38 be448.62 accepting448.86 on449.34 this449.58 matter449.74 until450.38 this450.94 Friday,451.18 April452.04 4th452.75 at453.48 5:00455.39 PM.455.71 Now455.71 let's455.71 begin,458.27 we458.44 will458.44 begin458.68 by459 hearing459.24 from459.48 invited459.8 testifiers460.27 on461 the461.15 matter461.24 of461.56 constitutional461.8 law462.75 and463.15 state463.48 government.463.8 The464.9 first465.06 to465.3 speak465.54 on465.78 this465.94 matter,466.18 the466.66 subcommittee466.9 invites467.54 professor468.02 Lawrence468.42 Friedman468.9 to469.38 speak.469.54 Just470.82 to471.06 note,471.22 professor472.18 Friedman472.66 and473.86 I474.1 are474.42 not474.66 related,474.9 although475.46 I475.86 would476.02 be476.18 honored476.34 to476.74 have476.9 him477.14 as477.38 a477.62 family477.7 member.478.1 We478.58 just478.82 share479.22 the479.54 great479.63 last482.19 name.484.75 Professor485.14 Friedman,485.14 before485.14 you485.14 begin,485.38 I489.7 want489.87 to490.19 give490.19 a490.58 brief490.82 bio491.79 introduction.492.19
493.55 Professor493.55 Lawrence494.03 Friedman,494.43 author494.99 of495.31 a495.47 constitutional495.71 law496.67 casebook497.07 and497.55 co-author497.79 of498.35 the498.51 leading498.75 state499.15 constitutional499.79 law500.67 casebook,500.99 is501.79 a502.03 faculty502.19 member502.75 at503.55 New503.79 England504.03 Law504.35 Boston504.59 where505.15 he505.39 teaches505.55 courses506.18 in506.57 constitutional506.89 law,507.69 privacy508.5 law,509.06 and509.38 national509.69 security.510.25 He511.54 is511.77 a512.41 recognized512.58 expert513.22 in513.7 federal513.86 and514.25 state514.41 constitutional514.82 law515.62 and516.17 was516.34 selected516.58 by517.05 Oxford517.29 University517.77 Press518.59 to519.07 edit519.15 its519.47 series519.71 on520.11 the520.27 American520.43 state520.91 constitutions.521.39 Professor522.99 Friedman523.39 also523.95 frequently524.27 serves524.75 as525.23 a525.31 constitutional525.47 law526.43 expert526.75 for527.47 WHDH527.87 TV528.91 Boston529.39 and529.87 is530.11 a530.19 contributor530.35 to531.67 many531.84 legal532.15 and532.63 non-legal532.79 publications,533.6 including534.63 The535.03 Hill,535.2 Commonwealth536.08 Magazine,536.88 and537.84 Law538.08 360.538.88 In539.91 addition540.15 to540.55 New540.72 England540.96 law,541.2 Professor541.51 Friedman542 has542.39 taught542.63 law542.96 at543.67 Boston543.84 College544.32 Law544.79 School545.03 and545.36 Harvard545.51 Law.545.67 Before547.1 teaching,547.5 he547.9 was548.14 an548.3 associate548.46 with549.18 Choate549.42 Hall549.82 and550.06 Stewart550.3 in550.62 Boston550.7 and551.5 served551.74 as551.98 a552.22 law552.3 clerk552.54 with552.86 the553.02 New553.18 Hampshire553.34 Superior553.82 Court554.3 and554.86 then555.1 as555.26 law555.5 clerk555.74 to556.06 the556.22 honorable556.38 John557.02 T.557.26 Broderick557.5 Junior558.06 of558.7 the558.86 New559.02 Hampshire559.18 Supreme559.66 Court.560.06 He560.87 holds561.02 an561.26 undergraduate561.5 degree562.14 from562.47 Connecticut562.71 College,563.26 a563.99 law564.14 degree564.38 from564.71 Boston564.95 College565.42 Law565.9 School,566.14 and566.63 an566.87 LLM567.02 from567.59 Harvard567.9 Law568.3 School.568.54 Welcome,569.02 Professor569.5 Friedman.569.99
571.11 LAWRENCE571.11 FRIEDMAN571.11 -571.11 NEW571.11 ENGLAND571.11 LAW571.11 -571.11 Thank571.11 you.571.35 Thank573.7 you574.02 for574.18 the574.34 opportunity574.5 to575.22 address575.46 some575.94 of576.18 the576.26 constitutional576.5 issues577.06 surrounding577.46 Chapter578.5 250578.9 of578.9 the578.98 Acts579.14 of579.38 2024579.62 and580.82 to581.06 answer581.14 your581.46 questions.581.62 I582.34 would582.5 like,582.74 in582.98 my583.22 opening583.38 remarks,583.86 briefly584.66 to585.14 address585.38 some585.7 of585.86 these586.02 issues.586.26 First,587.14 that588.52 the588.76 Attorney589.25 General589.73 allowed589.73 the590.04 audit590.2 initiative590.61 proposal591.08 to591.64 proceed591.8 to592.28 the592.37 November592.52 2024593.25 ballot593.96 is594.61 immaterial594.92 to595.57 the595.73 question595.8 whether596.2 it596.52 is596.68 constitutional597.64 and598.68 firm.598.68 Article598.68 48599.08 authorizes599.64 the600.2 Attorney600.61 General600.92 to600.92 exclude601.08 proposals601.49 from602.04 the602.2 initiative602.37 petition602.85 process603.25 on604.17 several604.41 bases,604.81 none605.21 of605.37 which605.53 necessarily605.85 encompasses606.49 violations607.21 of607.69 the607.85 separation608.01 of608.41 powers608.57 or609.21 other609.45 structural609.85 constitutional610.33 defects.611.13 Indeed,611.93 as612.33 the612.49 website612.65 for613.05 the613.21 attorney613.29 general's613.77 office614.25 makes614.57 clear,614.89 petitions615.61 that616.17 appear616.41 on616.81 a616.89 ballot616.97 and617.5 are617.66 approved617.9 by618.14 voters618.3 could618.71 later618.95 be619.26 challenged619.42 in619.75 court619.99 and620.38 invalidated620.79 on621.5 those621.66 grounds.621.9 Here,622.79 the623.11 attorney623.26 general623.75 concluded624.23 that624.95 the625.11 audit625.35 initiative625.66 proposal626.14 did626.63 not626.87 implicate627.02 any627.59 of627.83 the627.9 bases628.07 for628.47 exclusion628.71 from629.26 the629.42 ballot629.5 named629.9 in630.14 article630.3 48.630.63 Accordingly,631.8 in632.52 this632.76 case,633 this633.64 proposal633.96 could634.36 proceed634.52 to634.76 the634.92 ballot635 notwithstanding635.32 that636.04 it636.16 might636.28 possess636.44 some636.84 other637.08 constitutional637.48 infirmity638.04 such639 as639.24 a639.4 separation639.56 of639.96 powers640.12 problem.640.52 Again,641.16 the641.48 fact641.64 that641.96 the642.2 attorney642.36 general642.68 approved643.08 this643.4 to643.64 go643.8 to643.96 the644.04 voters644.12 does644.6 not644.76 mean644.92 that645.08 there645.24 were645.48 not645.56 other645.8 constitutional645.96 issues646.6 that647.51 could647.6 later647.83 be648.24 litigated,648.71 and649.2 I649.36 believe649.51 the649.75 attorney649.83 general650.24 anticipated650.63 exactly651.27 that651.67 when652.24 she652.48 approved652.63 it.652.88 Second,654.24 that655.03 the655.2 initiative655.36 proposal655.75 was656.32 approved656.48 by656.79 more656.96 than657.12 70%657.27 of657.83 the658 voters658.08 who658.39 participated658.63 in659.2 the659.36 20659.6 24659.91 election660.48 is661.12 immaterial661.36 to661.92 the662.08 question662.16 whether662.48 it662.8 is662.96 constitutionally663.2 infirm.663.92 To665.2 understand665.36 why665.84 this666 is666.16 so,666.24 consider666.56 a666.96 hypothetical667.12 initiative668 proposal.668.4 As669.44 noted669.68 by670 the670.16 attorney670.24 general,670.64 her671.04 office671.2 may671.76 not671.92 to672.16 decline672.32 excuse672.8 me,673.12 may673.36 not673.52 decline673.84 to674.16 certify674.32 a674.8 petition674.88 that675.6 conflicts675.84 with676.3 a676.46 constitutional676.71 guarantee677.26 not677.83 mentioned678.14 in678.63 amendment678.87 article679.35 48,679.75 such680.78 as681.02 due681.18 process681.35 or681.83 equal681.9 protection.682.14 Imagine683.5 a684.14 ballot684.3 initiative684.78 providing685.35 for685.75 increased685.99 penalties686.46 for687.02 left687.18 handed687.42 people687.83 in688.14 case688.3 of688.46 motor688.71 vehicle689.02 violations.689.35 Though690.41 such690.65 a690.81 proposal690.97 raises691.37 a691.85 clear692.01 equal692.33 protection692.65 issue,693.13 the693.93 attorney694.09 general694.49 would694.97 allow695.21 it695.53 to695.69 proceed695.85 because696.17 equal696.49 protection696.73 is697.13 not697.37 a697.53 ground697.61 for697.93 disapproving698.25 a698.73 petition.698.81 The700.33 initiative700.49 passes701.05 with701.37 more701.61 than701.77 70%701.93 of702.49 the702.65 electorate's702.73 approval.703.21 When703.91 that704.15 equal704.24 protection704.63 issue704.96 is705.27 litigated705.43 after706 the706.32 law706.48 is706.72 enforced706.96 against707.36 the707.6 left707.75 handed707.91 person,708.32 a708.88 review709.12 in709.36 court709.43 would709.75 not709.91 regard710.08 as710.48 relevant710.72 in711.2 determining711.36 whether711.84 the712.15 law712.32 violates712.55 the713.04 constitution713.2 as714.24 applied714.48 the715.36 fact715.51 that715.75 the716 proposal716.7 enjoyed717.1 more717.5 than717.74 70%717.9 support718.54 from718.86 the719.02 electorate.719.18 In720.06 short,720.22 the720.54 popularity720.7 of721.34 a721.42 proposal721.58 has722.22 no722.46 bearing722.62 on722.94 its723.02 constitutionality.723.26
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legislative959.23 deliberation959.87 are960.74 off960.89 limits.961.21 Former962.17 judge962.58 Dan962.82 Winslow963.05 has963.53 argued963.7 that963.93 a964.17 line964.25 can964.58 be964.74 drawn964.82 between965.13 deliberative965.53 and966.01 administrative966.33 functions966.98 in967.38 the967.53 legislature967.62 and968.58 that968.65 the968.89 auditor968.98 should969.38 have969.53 the969.7 authority969.86 to970.5 audit970.74 the971.21 latter.971.38 But972.86 even973.02 as973.26 Judge973.5 Winslow973.9 recognized,974.54 there975.1 exists975.34 a975.66 gray975.82 area976.06 between976.46 these976.7 functions976.86 that977.26 a977.5 court977.58 may977.9 not978.06 have978.3 the978.46 competence978.62 to979.18 clarify,979.34 and980.3 which980.46 could980.7 compel980.94 a981.26 court,981.34 should981.82 it982.06 not982.14 view982.38 the982.54 case982.7 as982.94 raising983.1 a983.42 political983.5 question,983.9 to984.62 dictate984.78 to985.26 the985.34 legislature985.42 the986.14 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as1037.31 comprehensive1037.47 as1038.11 what1038.27 the1038.43 auditor1038.59 currently1039.07 seems1040.11 to1040.35 seek,1040.75 were1041.55 accomplished1041.79 with1042.27 the1042.51 legislature's1042.67 permission,1043.31 which1043.95 consent1044.27 the1044.75 legislature1044.91 is1045.55 free1045.71 to1045.95 give.1046.11 It1046.98 remains,1047.13 however,1047.46 that1047.86 11048.02 legislature1048.26 cannot1048.82 bind1049.22 its1049.54 successor.1049.78 In1050.49 other1050.65 words,1050.73 11051.06 legislature's1051.22 determination1051.93 to1052.82 diminish1053.06 its1053.54 constitutional1053.78 authority1054.34 by1054.73 consenting1054.98 to1055.38 or1055.62 cooperating1055.86 with1056.34 some1056.82 form1057.06 of1057.3 audit1057.46 has1057.93 no1058.17 bearing1058.34 on1058.65 the1058.73 authority1058.89 of1059.22 a1059.38 subsequent1059.46 legislature1060.02 to1060.58 do1060.73 so.1060.89 The1061.24 general1061.56 court,1061.88 no1062.36 more1062.6 than1062.76 the1063 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1078.93 SPEAKER11078.93 -1078.93 Thank1078.93 you1079.26 very1079.49 much.1079.82 Questions1081.65 from1081.97 the1083.1 committee?1083.49 You1085.02 ready?1085.17 Senator1085.49 Brownsberger?1085.97
1087.02 SPEAKER31087.02 -1087.02 Sure.1087.02 Could1088.54 you1088.7 just1088.86 unpack1089.26 further1089.65 the1090.06 sort1090.47 of1090.63 direct1090.79 versus1091.11 indirect,1091.43 interference1092.95 and1093.43 undermining1093.67 concepts?1094.23
1096.31 SPEAKER21096.31 -1096.31 So1096.31 the1096.79 direct1097.11 interference1097.59 would1098.39 be1098.63 an1099.03 audit1099.27 that1099.67 effectively1100.23 tells1101.83 you1102.23 how1102.87 to1103.27 run1103.43 your1103.99 chamber.1104.31 Right?1104.79 Indirectly,1106.13 it1107.09 would1107.33 be1107.57 okay.1107.88 Let's1108.37 assume1108.68 for1109.01 the1109.16 purpose1109.24 of1109.57 this1109.72 argument1109.96 that1110.44 everyone1110.68 agrees1111.09 that1111.96 certain1112.2 administrative1112.68 functions1113.24 can1113.64 be1113.8 the1113.96 subject1114.04 of1114.44 an1114.53 audit.1114.68 Perhaps,1115.09 those1115.8 things1116.04 that1116.37 the1116.61 Senate1116.77 has1117.16 allowed1117.4 to1117.64 be1117.8 audited1117.96 by1118.44 an1118.61 auditor1118.68 of1119.09 its1119.16 own1119.24 choosing1119.48 in1119.8 the1119.96 past.1120.04 Well,1121.24 suppose1121.56 the1121.88 auditor1122.04 doesn't1122.36 like1122.68 the1123 response1123.16 it1123.48 gets.1123.56 Suppose1123.88 it1124.12 doesn't1124.28 like1124.52 the1124.84 documents1125.08 it1125.64 gets.1125.72 Suppose1125.96 it1126.2 thinks1126.36 that1127.64 the1127.8 auditor1127.96 believes1128.44 that1128.84 they1128.92 are1129.08 entitled1129.24 to1129.72 more.1129.88 They're1131.24 gonna1131.48 have1131.72 to1131.96 go1132.12 force1132.68 the1133 legislature1133.16 to1134.04 produce1134.68 those1135.08 documents1135.4 by1136.52 presumably1136.85 seeking1138.2 help1138.52 of1138.68 the1138.85 attorney1139.01 general1139.33 to1139.64
1139.72 SPEAKER41139.72 -1139.72 go1139.72 to1139.88
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1198.28 SPEAKER31198.28 -1198.28 It1198.28 does.1198.43 If1198.84 I1199 could1199.08 follow-up.1199.24 Yes.1199.8 So,1200.54
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1224.84 SPEAKER51224.84 -1224.84 Absolutely.1224.84
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1245.87 SPEAKER31245.87 -1245.87 And1245.87 even1246.11 if1246.35 you1246.42 do1246.59 like1246.74 the1246.98 answers1247.14 you1247.38 get,1247.63 you1248.42 might1248.59 just1248.83 ask1248.98 for1249.22 more1249.3 documents1249.54 for1250.42 some1250.66 collateral1250.9 purpose.1251.46
1252.27 SPEAKER21252.27 -1252.27 Yes.1252.27
1258.03 SPEAKER11258.03 -1258.03 Senator.1258.03 Yeah.1260.19
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1264.75 SPEAKER31264.75 -1264.75 my1264.75 name1264.99 is,1265.15
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1335.78 SPEAKER21335.78 -1335.78 Isn't1335.78 that1336.02 Jim1336.1 Stone?1336.34 Yeah.1336.82
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1431.37 SPEAKER41431.37 -1431.37 No.1431.37 No.1431.61 It's1431.85 it's1432.09 obviously1432.17 not1432.53 understood.1432.89
1433.77 SPEAKER61433.77 -1433.77 If1433.77 I1433.93
1434.01 SPEAKER41434.01 -1434.01 could1434.01 not1434.17 have1434.33 changed1434.41 my1434.81 mind.1434.89 Follow-up1436.17 questions.1436.57 You're1437.05 talking1437.29 about1437.53 checks1437.69 and1437.93 balances.1438.09
1453.74 Principles1453.74 that1453.94 we1454.14 would1454.56 be1454.98 interfering,1455.4 in1456.3 another1456.46 branch1457.18 of1457.26 government1457.47 when1457.69 we1457.9 need1458.14 cold1458.38 hearings.1458.62 Understanding1459.9 that1460.54 we1460.78 appropriate,1460.94 I1461.38 think1461.82 the1462.06 the1462.3 legislature1462.38 is1462.9 funding.1463.42 And1464.3 the1464.38 idea1464.62 with1464.94 our1465.18 post1465.42 audit1465.74 notice1465.9 that,1466.3 the1467.74 hearing1467.9 committees1468.22 is1468.7 that1468.78 we1468.94 make1469.79 sure1469.88 that1470.12 that1470.28 money1470.43 is1470.84 being1470.99 spent1471.32 per1471.88 legislative1472.12 time1472.76 for1472.91 our1473.23 appropriations.1473.32 Do1474.43 you1474.6 see1474.76 any1475.23 conflict1475.63 there?1475.95 Is1476.12 this1476.28 happening?1476.43 Is1476.99 it1477.32 completely1477.55 different?1478.12 You1479.39 know,1479.63 we've1479.79 been1479.95 we've1480.28 been1480.52 told,1481.08 that1482.29 the1482.61 the1483.25 argument1483.41 that1483.81 we're1483.97 having1484.13 about1484.45 violent1484.85 constitutional1485.25 principles1485.73 and1486.05 separation1486.13 of1486.69 powers,1486.77 is1488.21 is1488.53 is1488.77 also1488.93 being1489.25 done1489.57 on1489.81 our1489.97 end1490.13 with1490.29 these1490.45 folks.1490.93 Is1491.25 that1492.05 true?1492.37
1494.63 SPEAKER21494.63 -1494.63 I'm1494.63 inclined1494.96 to1495.36 agree1495.52 with1495.91 your1496.48 characterization1496.72 of1497.2 it1497.36 as1497.52 apples1497.67 and1497.91 oranges.1498.08 I1498.96 think1499.04 that1499.36 the1499.67 constitutional1499.99 authority1500.63 of1501.28 this1501.43 legislature,1501.76 and1502.24 indeed1502.48 any1502.88 legislature,1503.28 to1503.91 make1504.08 sure1504.24 that1504.48 the1504.63 money1504.72 it1504.96 is1505.12 appropriate1505.28 in1505.67 spending1505.84 is1506.15 being1506.39 spent1506.56 the1506.8 way1506.88 it1507.04 wants1507.2 to1507.43 be1507.6 spent1507.67 is1508.32 unquestioned,1508.48 And1509.23 the1509.39 US1509.55 Supreme1509.79 Court1510.03 has1510.27 said1510.43 the1510.59 same1510.67 about1510.91 the1511.39 United1511.55 States1511.79 Congress,1512.11 and1512.99 it1514.11 is1514.27 clear1514.51 that1514.83 the1515.07 Constitution1515.23 John1515.87 Adams1516.11 wrote1516.59 gives1517.39 you1517.63 the1517.87 power1518.03 to1518.35 determine1518.59 how1518.99 much1519.15 money1519.39 to1520.03 bring1520.19 in1520.43 and1520.83 where1521.07 it1521.23 should1521.43 go.1521.67 It1521.91 would1522.15 be1522.39 odd1522.56 indeed1522.8 if1523.12 you1523.28 did1523.36 not1523.52 also1523.67 have1523.91 the1524.08 power1524.24 to1524.56 determine1524.63 that1525.04 it1525.2 was1525.28 going1525.43 where1525.67 it's1525.84 supposed1525.91 to1526.24 go.1526.32
1536.41 SPEAKER31536.41 -1536.41 Could1536.41 you,1536.65 you1537.13 know,1537.29 there's1537.61 sort1537.69 of1537.93 several1538.09 different1538.33 sort1539.21 of1539.37 independent1539.53
1543.13 bases1543.13 in1543.77 the1544.01 Constitution1544.17 for1544.97 rejecting1546.54 the1547.1 concept1547.26 of1547.65 the1548.78 auditors1549.02 auditing1549.65 the1550.13 legislature.1550.29 You've,1551.34 I1552.05 think,1552.13 talked1553.49 at1553.97 some1554.13 depth1554.38 about1554.69 the,1555.34 sort1556.54 of1556.78 fundamental1557.02 concept1557.49 of1557.89 what1558.05 the1558.21 legislature1558.45 is1559.02 and1559.27 how1559.43 it1559.59 relates1559.67 to1560.15 the1560.31 executive1560.39 branch.1560.95
1562.79 SPEAKER11562.79 -1562.79 Maybe1562.79 you1563.03 could1563.19 talk1563.27
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1570.55 SPEAKER31570.55 -1570.55 Thank1570.55 you.1570.79 I1572.63 was1572.87 going1573.11 to1573.35 ask1573.51 just1573.91 if1574.23 you1574.47 could1574.63 un1574.79 pack1575.21 the,1576.24 how1577.53 the1577.68 speech1577.85 and1578.16 debate1578.24 clause1578.97 bears1579.92 on1580.24 this1581.05 question1581.21 a1581.85 bit1581.92 more.1582.09 So,1583.21
1585.13 SPEAKER21585.13 -1585.13 the1585.13 speech1585.37 and1585.68 debate1586.01 clause,1586.57 I1587.13 suppose1587.29 you1587.68 could1587.85 look1588.01 at1588.24 it1588.4 as1588.64 the1588.81 textual1588.97 source1589.77 for1591.41
1594.61 a1594.61 privilege1594.85 that1595.57 you1595.89 enjoy1596.13 that1596.85 John1597.25 Adams1597.57 intended1598.05 to1598.93 exist1599.17 in1599.57 each1599.81 House1599.97 of1600.21 the1600.29 legislature,1600.45 the1601.01 deliberative1601.17 privilege.1601.73 And,1602.45 there's1602.61 also1602.85 a1603.17 speech1603.25 and1603.41 debate1603.57 clause1603.81 in1604.05 the1604.13 US1604.29 Constitution,1604.45 which1605.65 serves1605.73 a1606.05 similar1606.25 function.1606.93 And,1607.26 the1607.41 idea1607.58 the1607.82 framers1607.97 had1608.38 was1608.62 that1608.86 you1609.26 need1609.41 a1609.65 space1609.82 to1610.13 go1610.29 to1610.45 where1611.58 you1611.82 can1611.89 be1612.05 honest1612.21 with1612.53 your1612.62 colleagues1612.86 in1613.65 order1613.89 to1614.05 reach1614.69 compromises1615.02 and1615.58 agreements1615.73 that1616.21 create1616.86 the1617.1 policies1617.26 that1617.65 are1617.82 in1617.97 the1618.05 best1618.13 interest1618.45 for1618.83 the1619.07 people1619.15 of1619.31 the1619.47 Commonwealth.1619.63 And,1620.75 that1621.07 legislators1621.31 need1622.11 this1622.43 deliberative1622.67 privilege,1623.15 so1624.11 that1624.27 there1624.51 aren't1624.75 people1625.31 literally1625.71 at1626.11 their1626.27 shoulder,1626.43 whispering1626.83 their1627.31 ear,1627.55 or1627.87 threatening1628.19 them1628.75 to1629.07 do1629.15 certain1629.39 things.1629.63 You1629.95 need1630.11 a1630.27 place1630.35 to1630.59 go1630.67 where1630.83 you1630.99 and1631.15 your1631.31 colleagues1631.47 can1632.21 know1632.45 that1632.53 everything1632.85 you1633.16 say1633.4 will1633.64 be1633.88 kept1634.05 between1634.29 you.1635.48 And1635.81 it1636.05 provides1636.21 immunity1636.61 from1637.01 suit1637.24 based1637.57 on1637.73 anything1637.88 you1638.21 say1638.37 in1638.53 the1638.68 context1638.85 of1639.24 the1639.33 delivery1639.48 of1639.88 privilege,1639.97 but1640.68 it1640.92 also1641.09 carves1642.21 out,1642.61 or1643.73 not1643.88 carves1644.13 out,1644.45 maybe1644.68 identifies1645.24 more1646.21 specifically1647.26 this1648.46 core1648.86 function1649.1 that1650.22 each1650.62 House1650.94 has,1651.5 which1651.82 is1652.06 to1652.38 deliberate1652.54 policy1653.02 and1653.34 to1653.5 pass1653.66 laws1653.9 or1654.14 not1654.3 pass1654.46 laws1654.7 as1654.94 the1655.1 case1655.26 may1655.5 be.1655.66 And,1657.02 it1657.26 has1657.42 been1657.66 interpreted1657.9 as1658.7 giving1659.79 you1660.11 the1660.35 ability1660.59 to1660.98 figure1661.3 out1661.63 how1661.87 to1662.11 do1662.18 those1662.42 things1662.66 the1663.94 way1664.18 you1664.35 want1664.51 to,1664.74 accountable1665.7 to1666.18 your1666.35 constituents.1666.59 If1667.14 they1667.3 don't1667.38 like1667.63 the1667.79 results1667.94 or1668.35 whatever1668.66 it1668.98 is1669.14 they're1669.22 hearing1669.46 from1669.7 you,1669.87 they1670.03 can1670.18 take1670.27 appropriate1670.51 action,1670.98 but1671.22 you1671.38 need1671.55 that1671.79 space.1672.03 John1672.72 Adams1673.04 envisioned1673.52 the1674.4 deliverable1674.56 space1675.12 as1675.44 being1675.68 11676 where1676.56 all1676.96 of1677.12 those1677.36 details1677.84 of1678.32 policy1678.4 would1678.88 be1679.12 worked1679.2 out1679.52 without1680.16 you1680.56 having1680.8 to1681.12 worry1681.28 about1681.76 what1682 the1682.16 consequences1682.24 are1682.88 of1683.04 what1683.12 you1683.28 say.1683.44 Does1684.66 that1684.79 make1684.9 sense?1685.14
1687.07 SPEAKER31687.07 -1687.07 Yeah,1687.07 it1687.31 does.1687.38 I1687.71 mean,1687.79 and,1688.27 and,1689.18 tie1690.27 that1690.42 to1690.66 the1690.9 question1691.31 of1691.71 the1691.87 auditor1691.95 auditing.1692.42
1695.55 SPEAKER21695.55 -1695.55 So,1695.55 I1696.11 think1696.35 that1696.66 it,1697.77 the1698.25 deliberative1698.57 space1699.29 that1700.09 each1700.41 legislature1700.81 enjoys1701.61 based1702.73 on1702.97 supreme1703.21 judicial1703.61 court1704.09 precedent1704.33 is1704.97 pretty1705.21 large,1705.45 and1706.41 the1707.29 court1707.53 has1707.77 said1707.93 that1708.17 it's1708.49 not1708.81 just1708.97 the1709.29 things1709.37 you1709.69 say1709.85 on1710.09 the1710.25 floor,1710.33 it's1711.35 everything1711.74 you1712.14 say1712.3 in1713.11 committee,1713.35 working1713.83 together,1714.14 figuring1714.78 out1715.18 how1715.42 to1715.59 do1715.74 the1715.98 job1716.07 of1716.7 legislating1716.94 for1717.51 the1717.59 Commonwealth.1717.74 How1719.51 do1719.66 you1719.83 do1719.98 that?1720.07 Well,1720.3 you1720.46 probably1720.7 need1721.02 a1721.11 lot1721.26 of1721.42 other1721.59 things1721.74 to1722.07 do1722.14 that.1722.3 You1722.63 need1722.87 staff,1723.11 you1723.51 need1723.66 people1724.14 around1724.46 you,1724.7 you1724.94 need1725.11 resources,1725.35 and1726.19 those1726.35 are1726.59 therefore1726.67 connected1727.15 to1727.79 the1728.03 deliberate1728.19 privilege.1728.59 Even1729.39 though1729.55 all1729.87 of1730.03 those1730.19 things1730.43 might1730.67 in1730.91 litigation1731.07 not1731.63 be1731.87 privileged,1732.03 and1732.43 that's1732.59 an1732.83 open1732.99 question,1733.31 they're1734.11 certain,1734.35 they're1735.31 certainly1735.55 essential1735.95 to1736.43 the1736.59 deliberative1736.75 function.1737.23
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1740.38 SPEAKER21740.38 -1740.38 So,1740.38 the1740.62 speech1741.02 and1741.17 debate1741.34 clause1741.65 is1741.89 really1741.97 a1742.21 privilege1742.3 from1742.86 being1743.41 sued1743.82 for1744.13 something1744.3 you1744.62 say.1744.7 It1745.97 also1746.21 happens1746.54 to1746.93 identify1747.34 those1747.89 areas,1748.13 or1749.34 rather1749.49 the1749.89 area1750.13 in1750.45 which1750.7 the1751.41 legislature1751.58 will1753.25 perform1754.45 its1754.85 core1755.09 function,1755.33 which1755.97 is1756.21 policy1756.85 making1757.17 or1757.49 not1757.65 policy1757.89 making1758.21 as1758.53 the1758.61 case1758.69 may1758.93 be.1759.09 It1761.25 works1761.49 with1761.89 the1762.69 constitutional1763.01 provision1763.57 that1765.29 provides1765.53 that1765.92 each1766.16 house1766.4 is1766.72 the1766.88 manager1767.05 of1767.37 its1767.45 own1767.68 rules1767.92 to1768.96 basically1769.29 allow1770.88 the1771.29 legislature1771.53 to1772.16 control1772.33 the1772.72 terms1772.88 by1773.29 which1773.53 it1774.01 is1774.24 representative1774.48 without1775.61 interference.1776.01 To1778.16 go1778.32 back1778.4 to1778.56 something1778.64 you1778.96 said1779.12 earlier,1779.36 if1780.96 an1781.36 if1781.68 someone1781.92 from1782.24 another1782.4 branch1782.72 of1782.96 government1783.04 was1784.08 interfering1784.48 with1784.96 your1785.2 ability1785.36 to1786 do1786.24 those1786.48 things,1786.88 either1787.76 directly1788.08 or1788.48 indirectly,1788.56 it1790.01 would1790.24 undermine1790.57 your1790.96 ability1791.2 to1791.68 be1791.85 a1792.01 representative1792.16 of1792.72 your1792.88 constituents1793.13 in1794.01 the1794.16 way1794.24 the1794.4 Constitution1794.57 contemplates.1795.28
1797.68 SPEAKER31797.68 -1797.68 So,1797.68 having1799.28 an1799.61 auditor1799.85 even1800.64 making1800.88 administrative1801.28 requests,1802.01 perhaps1802.48 because1802.96 the1803.85 auditor1804.01 likes1804.95 or1805.19 didn't1805.35 like1805.67 something1805.83 the1806.15 legislature1806.31 was1806.95 doing,1807.11 would1807.91 interfere1808.15 with1808.63 our1808.87 ability1809.03 to1809.43 engage1811.67 in1812.07 speech1812.23 and1812.55 debate1812.71 because1813.03 our1813.35 speech1813.51 and1813.67 debate1813.83 might1814.15 lead1814.31 the1814.55 auditor1814.63 to1814.95 do1816.07 X,1816.31 Y,1816.55 or1816.71 Z.1816.87
1817.43 SPEAKER21817.43 -1817.43 Yes.1817.43 I1818.15 mean,1818.31 I1818.55 think1818.71 it1818.95 could1819.11 even,1819.43 Look,1821.22 to1821.54 do1821.7 the1821.86 things1821.93 you1822.26 do,1822.41 you1822.65 need,1822.89 you1823.22 can't,1823.38 I1824.89 assume1825.22 you1825.54 don't1825.7 all1825.93 just1826.17 show1826.49 up1826.73 and1827.46 sit1827.78 in1827.93 a1828.1 room1828.17 and1828.41 debate.1828.49 You1828.82 have1829.06 staffers,1829.78 and1830.26 you1830.41 have1830.65 support,1830.89 and1831.22 you1831.38 have1831.54 resources1831.7 to1832.58 help1832.82 you1833.06 make1833.62 sure1833.86 that1834.1 that1834.26 debate1834.41 is1834.73 informed.1834.89 That's1836.67 got1837.15 to1837.39 be1837.47 included1837.63 within1838.11 the1838.43 larger1838.67 scope1839.15 of1839.47 a1839.71 deliberative1840.03 function,1840.91 right.1841.47 And,1842.75 even1843.23 some1843.71 of1843.87 the1844.19 more1844.75 administrative1845.23 functions1845.87 that1846.51 the1847.55 auditor1847.79 has1848.19 identified,1848.43 if1850.74 those1851.23 were1851.63 to1851.87 be1852.11 questioned,1852.27 it1852.9 might1853.07 change1853.38 your1853.71 ability1853.95 to1854.51 do1854.66 the1854.9 things1855.07 that1855.38 you1855.55 do1855.79 as1856.35 a1856.59 matter1856.66 of,1856.9 as1857.71 the1857.87 constitution1858.03 requires,1858.42 to1859.79 the1860.03 best1860.11 of1860.35 your1860.42 ability.1860.66 Think1862.74 about,1862.98 so1864.05 11864.37 of1864.61 the,1864.77 I1865.89 believe1866.13 and1866.53 please1866.85 correct1867.09 me1867.33 if1867.49 I'm1867.65 wrong,1867.73 that1868.05 11868.21 of1868.45 the1868.53 requests1868.69 of1869.17 the1869.25 auditor1869.49 is1869.89 something1869.97 related1870.29 to1870.77 non1870.93 disclosure1871.17 agreements.1871.65 Now,1872.37 it's1872.53 my1872.77 understanding1872.85 that1873.33 non1873.65 disclosure1873.81 agreements1874.29 are1874.69 not1874.85 illegal1875.01 under1875.49 Massachusetts1875.81 law1876.45 and1876.69 that1876.93 the1877.09 governor1877.17 has1877.57 taken1877.73 steps1877.97 to1878.6 deal1878.76 with1878.91 that1879.08 in1879.32 the1879.39 executive1879.56 branch.1879.96 But1880.52 if1880.91 the1881.15 legislature1881.48 should1882.04 feel1882.2 that1882.36 it1882.6 needs1882.67 non1882.91 disclosure1883.15 agreements1883.72 for1884.04 some1884.28 reason,1884.43 it1885.08 seems1885.32 odd1885.63 to1885.88 me1885.96 that1886.28 the1886.52 auditor1886.67 would1887.15 be1887.32 in1887.39 a1887.56 position1887.63 to1888.28 undermine1888.52 that.1888.91 Why1889.8 might1890.04 you1890.28 need1890.43 non1890.67 disclosure1890.91 agreements?1891.39 Well,1892.02 even1892.26 in,1892.9 you1892.98 know,1893.14 cases1893.38 in1893.78 which1893.94 there,1894.42 nothing1894.66 horrendous1894.98 has1895.54 happened,1895.62 presumably1896.82 if1897.62 you1897.86 are1898.34 going1898.58 to1898.82 let1898.9 a1899.14 staffer1899.3 go,1899.7 you1899.86 would1900.02 like1900.18 some1900.42 assurance1900.58 that1900.98 they're1901.14 not1901.3 going1901.46 to1901.62 reveal1901.7 everything1902.02 that1902.42 they1902.58 know1902.74 about1902.98 what1903.3 you1903.46 were1903.62 deliberating,1903.78 because1904.34 that1904.58 would1904.74 undermine1904.9 the1905.94 deliberative1906.1 function.1906.58 Right?1907.14
1911.22 SPEAKER31911.22 -1911.22 I1911.22 suppose.1911.38 Do1912.66 you,1912.9 is1915.38 there1915.55 a1916.18 broader1916.27 national1918.11 or1918.51 federal1918.74 constitutional1919.31 context1921.06 or1921.38 current1921.78 events1922.02 context1922.42 that's1923.38 relevant1923.62 to1923.94 this1924.1 conversation?1924.58
1925.62 SPEAKER21925.62 -1925.62 I1925.62 have1925.86 not1926.02 thought1926.18 about1926.42 it1926.66 from1926.74 that1926.9 perspective.1927.06 I1928.02 do1928.18 think1928.34 that1928.66 it1928.9 is1929.06 interesting1929.3 to1929.86 see1930.02 what1930.26 happens1930.82 in1931.22 other1931.3 states,1931.54 under1931.94 other1932.18 state1932.34 constitutions.1932.58
1935.45 In1935.45 some1935.62 ways,1935.77 each1936.1 state1936.26 constitution1936.58 is1936.97 unique,1937.13 and1939.62 I1940.1 have1940.34 given1940.58 you1940.82 my1940.97 opinion1941.21 on1941.77 an1943.13 analysis1943.29 of1943.69 the1943.86 Massachusetts1943.93 Constitution.1944.41
1946.89 SPEAKER31946.89 -1946.89 Thank1946.89 you.1947.21 Senator1948.12 Comerford?1948.6
1950.92 SPEAKER71950.92 -1950.92 Thanks,1950.92 Madam1951.24 Chair.1951.48 Professor1952.36 Friedman,1952.68 thank1953.16 you1953.32 for1953.64 your1953.8 time.1954.04 I1954.76 wanted1955 to1955.24 go1955.4 back1955.48 to1956.36 where1956.52 you1956.68 suggested1957 that1957.48 11957.72 legislature1957.96 can't1958.6 bind1959 another,1959.32 and1960.7 I1960.87 wondered1961.02 if1961.51 you1961.66 could1962.38 expound1962.78 a1963.26 little.1963.35 You1963.66 talked1963.9 about1964.07 potentially1964.87 the1965.74 the1965.98 risks1966.22 if1966.54 if1966.87 we1967.11 rubbed1967.26 up1967.59 against1967.74 a1968.63 constitutional1968.78 change1970.46 or1970.78 challenge1970.94 that1971.9 that1972.14 would1972.3 bind1972.63 a1973.02 future1973.18 legislature.1973.66
1975.21 SPEAKER31975.21 -1975.21 Could1975.21
1975.37 SPEAKER71975.37 -1975.37 you1975.37 talk1975.53 more1975.85 about1976.09 that?1976.41
1976.65 SPEAKER21976.65 -1976.65 So1976.65 my1976.73 understanding1976.97 is1977.53 that1978.25 there1978.73 was1978.97 some1979.21 something1980.41 resembling1980.89 an1981.53 audit1981.69 happened1982.01 in1982.33 the1982.49 past,1982.57 although1982.81 nothing1983.13 on1983.45 the1983.61 scope1983.69 of1983.93 what1984.09 has1984.33 currently1984.49 been1984.97 proposed,1985.13 and1986.09 that1986.33 the1986.57 legislature1986.73 voluntarily1987.45 complied1988.57 with1988.97 with1989.13 that1989.54 to1989.62 a1989.86 certain1989.93 extent.1990.17 My1991.3 point1991.54 is1991.78 simply1991.86 that1992.17 that1992.41 is1992.49 not1992.65 binding1992.82 on1993.13 you.1993.3 That1994.58 11994.82 legislature,1995.06 by1995.54 its1995.78 actions,1996.02 can't1996.58 change1996.82 the1997.06 constitutional1997.21 boundaries.1997.78 In1998.34 other1998.41 words,1998.58 you1999.45 now1999.86 could2000.26 consent2000.49 to2001.21 everything2001.45 that2002.02 the2002.34 auditor2002.41 asks2002.82 and2002.97 that2003.13 would2003.21 not2003.38 bind2003.54 your2003.86 successors.2004.02 That2005.15 would2005.39 not2005.55 create2005.79 a2006.11 precedent,2006.27 because2006.67 that2006.99 is2007.15 just2007.31 the2007.63 consent2007.71 that2008.11 you2008.19 have2008.35 given.2008.51 The2009.71 constitutional2009.95 lines2010.43 remain2010.67 the2010.91 same.2011.07
2012.27 SPEAKER72012.27 -2012.27 Helpful.2012.27 Madam2013.79 Chair,2014.11 can2014.35 I2014.51 ask2014.59 another?2014.83 Professor2017.31 Friedman,2017.87 the2018.67 auditor2018.91 has2020.01 implied,2020.24 that2022.01 without,2023.61 her2024.57 ability2024.81 to2025.29 audit2025.53 the2025.85 legislature,2026.09 there2026.64 wouldn't2026.88 be2027.2 a2027.37 check2027.53 on2028.33 the2028.57 legislature.2028.72 Could2029.92 you2030.16 share2030.57 with2030.81 us2030.96 your2031.2 thoughts2031.45 about2031.77 what2032.4 checks2032.57 the,2033.41 the2033.49 power2033.73 we2034.05 have?2034.29 Well,2034.61
2037.09 SPEAKER22037.09 -2037.09 John2037.09 Adams2037.41 did2038.37 create2038.69 a2039.01 check2039.17 on2039.41 you.2039.65 It's2040.93 called2041.17 elections,2041.41 and2042.85 if2043.09 you2043.25 are2043.41 not2043.57 doing2043.81 what2044.05 your2044.21 constituents2044.45 believe2045.01 you2045.25 should2045.49 be2045.65 doing,2045.73 presumably2046.63 the2048.22 effects2048.39 of2048.59 that2048.78 will2049.03 be2049.18 felt2049.34 in2049.98 November.2050.14
2051.26 SPEAKER12051.26 -2051.26 Thank2051.26 you.2051.51
2059.11 Thank2059.11 you.2059.34 I2060.22 have2060.39 a2060.55 question.2060.63 If2061.51 you,2061.74 suspending2063.1 for2064.62 a2064.86 second2064.94 the2065.34 issue2065.58 of2066.06 whether,2066.3
2068.94 the2068.94 auditor2069.34 has2070.06 the2070.38 authority2070.62 under2071.26 the2071.5 constitution,2071.74 just2072.46 hold2072.78 that2073.1 aside2073.42 for2073.82 a2073.98 minute.2074.06 Her2075.42 position2075.66 is2076.14 that2076.38 the2077.18 statutory2077.55 changes2078.36 brought2078.76 about2079.07 by2079.39 the2079.72 ballot2080.52 initiative,2080.99
2084.52 although2084.52 they2084.91 took2085.16 effect2085.39 on2085.72 January2086.03 3,2086.61 she2087.95 believes2088.2 that2088.59 she2088.84 could2088.99 audit2089.49 periods2089.89 of2090.37 that2090.61 prior2090.93 anything2091.73 prior2092.21 to2092.53 that2092.69 date2092.93 could2093.49 be2093.73 open2094.53 to2094.93 audit.2095.09 Do2097.01 Massachusetts2097.89 statutes2098.69 generally2100.37 grant2101.17 prospectively2103.43 or2104.22 retroactively2104.55 in2105.34 your2105.51 opinion?2105.74 What2106.07 does2106.22 that2106.47 mean2106.7 here?2107.03
2108.22 SPEAKER22108.22 -2108.22 Well,2108.22 the2108.86 SJC2109.11 has2109.74 held2109.99 that2110.39 unless2110.78 it2111.18 specifically2111.51 says2112.47 that2112.86 a2113.11 statute2113.34 will2113.82 apply2114.07 retroactively,2115.41 that2116.05 it2116.29 only2116.45 applies2117.25 prospectively.2117.73 I2118.69 don't2118.85 believe2119.01 there's2119.33 anything2119.57 in2119.97 the2120.21 ballot2120.37 initiative2120.69 that2121.01 suggested2121.25 that2121.65 it2121.81 would2121.89 apply2122.05 retroactively.2122.37 Okay.2123.57
2128.61 SPEAKER12128.61 -2128.61 Okay.2128.61 Is2128.93 there2129.09 any2129.41 other2129.65 questions?2129.89 Senator2130.98 Feeney?2131.3
2132.18 SPEAKER42132.18 -2132.18 Thank2132.18 you,2132.51
2136.03 SPEAKER12136.03 -2136.03 madam2136.03 chair.2136.09
2136.15 SPEAKER32136.15 -2136.15 Thank2136.15 you,2136.22
2136.28 SPEAKER42136.28 -2136.28 madam2136.28 chair.2136.34 Thank2136.59 you,2136.82 professor.2137.55
2140.51 22140.51 questions.2140.74
2144.57 You2144.57 had2144.81 mentioned2144.97 in2145.37 your2145.61 in2145.85 your2146.01 remarks,2146.25 and2146.65 and2146.81 this2146.89 is2147.01 something2147.13 I'm2147.45 hoping2147.53 you2147.77 can2147.85 dig2148.01 into2148.17 a2148.49 little2148.57 bit2148.73 deeper,2148.89 the2149.69 limited2149.85 review2150.25 of2150.89 the2151.29 attorney2151.45 general2151.93 when2152.65 it2152.81 comes2152.89 to2154.17 moving2154.41 forward2154.73 on2155.05 a2155.29 on2155.37 a2155.45 ballot2156.41 question.2156.82 We2158.09 have2158.34 heard2158.49 from2158.74 many2158.89 who2159.14 have2159.22 reached2159.38 out2159.61 to,2159.78 certainly,2159.86 this2160.26 subcommittee2160.41 and2160.89 our2161.06 colleagues2161.22 in2161.54 the2161.7 legislature2161.86 to2162.41 say,2162.97 it2163.22 is2163.38 constitutional.2163.61 The2164.34 attorney2164.49 general2164.89 said2165.22 so.2165.45 It2165.78 was2165.86 on2166.09 my2166.26 ballot.2166.41 Therefore,2166.97 you2167.86 must2168.02 comply2168.18 because2168.57 it's2168.82 constitutional.2169.25 And2170.05 and2170.29 I2170.69 think2170.85 you2171.01 in2171.41 your2171.57 remarks,2171.81 you2172.13 did2172.21 a2172.37 great2172.45 job2172.61 in2172.77 kind2172.93 of2173.09 explaining2173.25 that.2174.21 Can2174.93 you2175.17 dig2175.25 a2175.41 little2175.57 bit2175.81 deeper2175.97 into2176.29 that?2176.53 How2176.85 limited2177.09 is2177.49 that2177.57 review2177.73 of2178.05 the2178.13 attorney2178.29 general?2178.69 It2179.97 sounds2180.21 like2180.45 a2180.61 function2180.77 that2181.09 maybe2181.25 we2181.57 should2181.65 take2181.81 a2181.93 look2182.05 at2182.21 at2182.53 at2182.61 some2182.77 point2183.01 going2183.25 forward2183.49 so2183.89 that2183.97 voters2184.13 aren't2184.53 forced2185.03 to2185.28 vote2185.43 on2185.51 something2185.67 that2185.99 may2186.07 be2186.47 considered2186.71 unconstitutional.2187.43 Yes.2188.23
2188.55 SPEAKER62188.55 -2188.55 I'd2188.55 be2188.71 happy2188.88
2189.11 SPEAKER22189.11 -2189.11 to2189.11 have2189.19 that2189.36 discussion2189.51 with2189.91 you2189.99 when2190.16 you're2190.32 ready2190.39 to2190.71 have2190.8 it.2190.91 Yeah.2191.03 But2191.43 essentially,2191.76 Senator,2193.19 Article2193.99 482194.39 provides2194.8 a2195.11 checklist2195.19 of2196.39 certain2196.95 things2197.51 that2198.07 cannot2198.6 validly2199 be2199.56 the2199.72 subject2199.88 of2200.92 a2201.16 valid2201.32 petition,2201.72 and2202.68 it's2203.32 limited.2203.64 It's2204.44 limited2204.68 mostly2205.16 to2205.72 a2206.04 handful2206.28 of2206.76 individual2207 rights2207.64 for,2208.04 for2208.76 our2209 purposes2209.16 here2209.56 that,2210.28 as2210.61 I2210.86 suggested,2210.93 don't2211.49 even2211.66 include2211.89 such2212.78 fundamental2213.01 rights2213.41 as2213.73 due2213.89 process2214.05 and2214.38 equal2214.53 protection.2214.78 And2215.09 so2215.34 an2215.49 attorney2215.66 general2215.97 could2216.3 look2216.61 at2216.86 a2217.09 proposal2217.34 and2218.05 see2218.3 an2219.09 obvious2219.26 procedural2220.21 due2221.57 process2221.73 or2222.3 substantive2222.61 due2223.26 process2223.41 or2223.82 equal2223.97 protection2224.3 problem,2224.69 and2225.19 that2225.35 is2225.51 not2225.59 a2225.67 basis2225.91 for2226.39 withholding2226.63 it2227.11 from2227.27 the2227.51 ballot.2227.59 Similarly,2228.87 there2229.67 are2229.83 all2229.99 kinds2230.15 of2230.55 structural2230.71 separation2231.59 of2231.99 powers2232.07 issues2232.47 that2232.95 are2233.03 not2233.19 on2233.35 that2233.51 list2233.75 of2234.39 valid2234.55 reasons.2234.87 I2236.39 think2236.55 that2236.87 although2237.83 the2238.47 attorney2238.87 general2239.27 must2239.75 do2240.07 some2241.14 substantive2241.47 analysis2242.03 of2242.91 the2243.07 petitions2243.31 that2243.79 come2243.95 across2244.11 your2244.43 desk,2244.59 it2245.47 is2245.63 in2245.79 many2245.86 ways2246.11 a2246.27 ministerial2246.43 function.2247.07
2248.91 SPEAKER42248.91 -2248.91 Understood.2248.91 Okay.2249.7 And,2250.27 I'd2250.43 be2250.51 happy2250.66 to2250.91 have2250.99 that2251.14 conversation2251.31 as2251.7 we2251.95 get2252.03 through2252.18 this2252.35 1,2252.59 figuring2252.83 out2253.11
2253.55 SPEAKER22253.55 -2253.55 I2253.55 understand.2253.63
2254.55 SPEAKER42254.55 -2254.55 Because2254.55 it2254.87 it2255.11 it2255.19 does2255.35 sound2255.59 it's2255.75 it's2255.91 a2256.15 little2256.23 bit2256.39 of2256.63 a2256.87 quirk2257.03 of2257.35 that2257.51 article,2257.67 I2257.99 think,2258.07 where,2258.31 you2258.79 know,2258.95 people2259.11 are2259.43 voting2259.51 on2259.83 something2259.99 of2260.47 which2260.55 the2260.79 implementation2260.95 could2261.51 be2261.67 unconstitutional.2261.83
2262.71 SPEAKER22262.71 -2262.71 So,2262.71 direct2263.51 democracy2263.83 here2264.39 in2264.63 the2264.71 Commonwealth2264.87 is2265.35 actually2265.59 a2265.91 little2266.07 bit2266.31 more2266.39 circumscribed2266.63 than2267.19 it2267.35 is2267.51 in2267.67 other2267.83 states.2267.99 And,2268.61 the2268.78 framers2268.93 of2269.09 Article2269.41 482269.74 had2270.3 in2270.53 mind,2270.7 I2270.93 think,2271.09 what2271.26 you2271.41 are2271.66 getting2271.82 at,2272.05 which2272.22 is2272.38 maybe2272.86 there2273.09 are2273.34 some2273.41 things2273.57 that2273.82 shouldn't2273.97 be2274.3 left2274.45 to2274.7 a2274.78 vote2274.86 of2274.97 the2275.09 people,2275.18 not2275.49 that2275.66 the2275.89 people2275.97 don't2276.22 know2276.45 a2276.78 lot2276.86 about2277.01 a2277.34 lot2277.41 of2277.57 things,2277.66 but2278.45 the2279.74 way2279.89 the2280.14 people2280.3 make2280.61 decisions2280.86 is2281.26 very2281.41 different,2281.66 for2282.05 example,2282.22 than2282.61 the2282.78 way2282.93 you2283.09 make2283.26 decisions,2283.41 which2284.58 is2284.82 deliberately.2285.06 And,2286.02 again,2286.66 with2287.14 John2287.38 Adams,2287.62 the2288.02 constitution2288.26 he2288.74 created2288.82 emphasized2289.54 the2290.42 deliberative2290.66 function.2291.22 That2292.02 laws2293.38 would2293.78 not2293.94 result,2294.18 from2296.26 some2296.5 sort2296.82 of2296.98 ad2297.46 hoc2297.78 reasoning.2298.1 You'd2298.91 have2299.16 the2299.32 time2299.39 to2299.64 think2299.72 about2299.95 it.2300.2 You2301.64 know,2301.8 everybody2301.95 votes2302.28 for2302.52 their2302.76 own2302.84 reasons,2302.99 and2303.39 they2303.64 vote2303.8 based2304.04 on2304.28 the2304.39 best2304.52 information2304.84 they2305.24 have.2305.47
2306.2 SPEAKER42306.2 -2306.2 Alright.2306.2 Thank2306.91 you.2307.24 It's2307.47 helpful.2307.55 And2307.88 I2307.95 got2308.11 12308.28 more,2308.43 Madam2308.91 Chair,2309.16 if2309.32 it's2309.47 okay2309.64 with2309.88 the2310.04 professor.2310.2 We2312.28 tried,2312.52 as2312.84 chair2314.04 Friedman2314.2 had2314.68 mentioned2314.84 in2315.08 her2315.24 opening2315.48 remarks,2315.8 we2316.84 really2317 wanted2317.24 to2317.56 hear2317.64 from2317.8 kind2317.96 of2318.12 a2318.2 cross2318.36 section2318.6 of2318.92 of2319.08 people2319.24 that2319.56 had,2319.72 you2320.04 know,2320.2 different2320.36 framers2320.68 of2321 reference2321.24 on2321.64 on2321.8 this2321.96 issue2322.12 as2322.36 we've2322.6 been2322.76 struggling2323 with2323.4 it2323.64 the2323.72 last2323.8 couple2324.04 months2324.28 to2324.6 get2324.68 this2324.84 right.2325 Unfortunately,2327.21 the2327.78 office2327.86 of2328.09 the2328.18 state2328.26 auditor2328.49 declined2328.82 to2329.14 be2329.3 here2329.38 and2329.61 to2329.7 to,2329.86 explain2330.66 their2331.21 perspective.2331.45 Happy2333.3 to2333.61 have2333.78 you2333.93 and2334.18 other2334.41 experts2334.73 that2335.14 are2335.3 with2335.45 us2335.61 today,2335.78 enlightening2337.05 us2337.61 on2337.86 on2338.09 kind2338.26 of2338.41 the2338.57 finer2338.73 points2339.05 of2339.3 this.2339.45 Do2340.17 you2340.33 know2340.49 of2340.73 any2340.89 other2341.45 legal2341.93 or2342.41 constitutional2342.81 scholars2343.85 or,2344.41 you2344.73 know,2344.89 some2345.29 of2345.37 your2345.45 colleagues2345.61 in2345.93 academia2346.09 that2347.21 actually2347.37 agree2348.73 with2349.05 the2349.21 perspective2349.37 of2349.77 the2349.93 Office2350.01 of2350.25 the2350.33 State2350.41 Auditor2350.65 that2350.97 this2351.13 is2351.37 constitutional2351.69 on2352.49 its2352.65 face,2352.89 that2353.13 this2353.29 can2353.57 be2353.64 done,2353.97 that2354.68 there2354.85 are2355.09 no2355.24 constitutional2355.57 issues.2356.13 Is2356.53 there2356.68 anybody2356.93 that2357.24 you're2357.41 aware2357.64 of?2357.89 You2358.53 know,2358.68 we2359.09 certainly2359.41 have2359.81 not2359.97 heard2360.2 from2360.45 them2360.61 here,2360.93 recently.2362.2
2362.68 SPEAKER22362.68 -2362.68 Senator,2362.68 I2363.24 am2363.33 not2363.49 aware2363.64 of2363.97 any2364.13 academic2364.36 who2364.85 holds2365.01 that2365.33 position.2365.49 The2366.93 colleagues2367.01
2370.14 who2370.14 teach2370.38 or2370.7 study2370.86 constitutional2371.18 law2371.66 with2371.82 whom2371.98 I've2372.22 spoken2372.46 essentially,2373.9 I2374.62 think2374.78 I2375.1 can2375.26 say2375.42 agree2375.66 with2375.98 me.2376.06 And,2376.3 12376.46 of2376.54 them2376.62 went2376.78 so2377.02 far2377.18 as2377.34 to2377.5 say2377.58 this2377.82 is2377.98 not2378.06 even2378.3 a2378.54 close2378.62 question.2378.86
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2408.21 SPEAKER22408.21 -2408.21 So,2408.21 when2408.53 it2408.78 comes2408.93 to2409.41 initiative2409.89 petitions,2410.69 there's2411.97 a2412.3 process2412.38 in2412.78 place2412.93 under2413.18 article2413.57 482413.97 and2414.53 the2414.93 attorney2415.18 general2415.49 is2415.82 an2415.97 initial2416.14 check2416.53 that2416.78 the2416.93 framers2417.09 of2417.41 article2417.57 48,2417.89 here2418.3 are2418.53 some2418.69 things2418.93 that2419.49 we2419.73 do2419.89 not2420.05 want2420.21 to2420.38 be2420.45 the2420.61 subject2420.78 of2421.26 such2421.41 petitions,2421.66 but2422.38 it's2422.53 not2422.78 everything.2422.93 And2423.7 the2424.26 Attorney2424.42 General2424.74 is2425.14 not2425.3 empowered2425.46 to2426.34 check2426.5 every2426.9 petition2427.22 to2428.1 ascertain2428.42 whether2428.82 there2429.14 is2429.3 some2429.46 constitutional2429.7 issue2430.26 lurking2430.58 there2430.9 other2431.38 than2431.62 the2431.94 very2432.1 few2432.34 that2432.66 are2432.82 named2432.98 in2433.3 Article2433.46 48.2433.86 Does2434.82 that2434.98 make2435.14 sense?2435.38
2435.7 SPEAKER12435.7 -2435.7 Yes.2435.7 Yes.2436.86 What2437.09 are,2437.41 do2437.66 you2437.82 know2437.89 what2438.14 those2438.3 are2438.53 that2438.78 are2439.02 named?2439.18 Well,2439.74 free2439.97 speech,2440.22
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2477.72 SPEAKER12477.72 -2477.72 Okay.2477.72 Next,2479.46 we2479.78 invite2480.1 Professor2480.5 Ray2481.22 LaRaja2481.46 to2482.02 speak.2482.18 Professor2484.02 LaRaja2484.58 is2485.22 a2485.54 professor2485.86 of2486.34 political2486.5 science2486.9 at2487.3 the2487.46 University2487.62 of2488.1 Massachusetts2488.34 Amherst.2489.06 His2490.18 areas2490.5 of2490.74 expertise2491.06 include2491.54 constitutional2492.1 democracy,2493.06 campaign2493.78 finance,2494.26 finance,2496.55 elections,2496.64 American2497.11 state2497.68 and2497.93 local2498.2 politics,2498.45 public2498.72 policy,2499.36 and2499.43 political2499.51 forum.2500.39 Professor2501.99 LaRaja2502.39 is2502.95 the2503.2 cofounder2503.28 and2503.99 former2504.16 coeditor2504.47 of2505.11 the2505.28 Forum,2505.43 a2506.39 journal2506.64 of2507.03 applied2507.11 research2507.68 in2508.16 contemporary2508.39 politics,2509 and2509.88 the2510.12 cofounder2510.28 and2510.92 co2511.16 director2511.4 of2512.36 the2512.52 UMass2512.68 poll,2513.16 which2513.64 conducts2513.96 public2514.44 opinion2514.76 research2515.24 in2515.56 Massachusetts2515.72 and2516.52 The2516.68 United2516.84 States2517.24 to2517.96 inform2518.12 policy2518.76 making.2519.08 He's2520.12 also2520.44 authored2520.84 multiple2521.24 publications2521.72 on2522.52 contemporary2522.76 American2523.4 politics2523.88 and2524.51 campaign2524.67 finance.2525.23 You2526.19 must2526.36 be2526.59 very2526.84 busy2526.99 these2527.39 days.2527.55 He2528.36 holds2528.51 a2528.76 master2528.91 in2529.32 public2529.55 policy2529.88 from2530.28 the2530.51 Kennedy2530.67 School2531.07 of2531.32 Government2531.47 at2532.43 Harvard2532.67 and2533.07 a2533.23 PhD2533.39 from2533.88 the2534.19 University2534.36 of2534.84 California2535.07 at2535.71 Berkeley.2535.88 Welcome,2536.59 professor2537.07 LaRaja,2537.55 and2538.03 thank2538.19 you2538.36 for2538.51 joining2538.76 us.2539.07
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2539.88 SPEAKER52539.88 -2539.88 you.2539.88 Madam2541.77 Chair2542.09 Friedman,2542.41 and2543.45 members2543.69 of2544.01 the2544.17 subcommittee,2544.25 thank2544.81 you2545.05 for2545.13 the2545.29 opportunity2545.45 to2545.85 testify2546.01 today.2546.57 I2548.57 believe2548.81 the2549.13 power2549.29 intended2549.69 to,2550.25 give2551.29 to2551.61 the2551.77 state2551.85 auditor2552.17 by2552.65 ballot2552.81 question2553.29 12553.85 threatens2554.25 a2554.73 core2554.89 principle2555.21 of2556.13 constitutional2556.28 democracy.2556.92 Massachusetts2557.96 voters2558.68 have2559.09 been2559.16 asked2559.32 to2559.48 decide2559.64 whether2559.96 the2560.28 state2560.53 auditor,2560.84 a2561.96 member2562.05 of2562.28 the2562.44 executive2562.53 branch,2563.16 should2563.96 be2564.28 authorized2564.53 to2565.01 audit2565.16 the2565.41 legislature2565.64 without2566.53 its2566.92 consent.2567.24 Now,2568.2 on2568.36 the2568.53 surface,2568.68 this2569.01 might2569.24 sound2569.41 like2569.72 a2569.89 simple2570.05 move2570.91 towards2571.15 transparency,2571.63 but2572.35 beneath2572.59 the2572.99 surface,2573.15 question2574.03 12574.83 threatens2575.31 12576.11 of2576.35 the2576.43 foundational2576.59 principles2577.07 of2577.55 American2577.63 constitutional2578.11 government,2578.75 separation2579.63 of2580.03 powers.2580.11 You2580.43 heard2580.51 it2580.75 from2580.83 my2580.99 colleague,2581.15 and2581.47 I'll2581.63 say2581.71 some2581.95 more.2582.11 Moreover,2583.09 it2583.72 affects2583.97 the2584.29 power2584.45 of2584.68 a2584.72 branch2584.77 that2585.16 is2585.32 chiefly2585.57 responsible2586.2 for2587.01 representing2587.32 the2587.72 voters2587.81 of2588.01 the2588.2 Commonwealth.2588.36 Notably,2589.49 the2589.97 ballot2590.13 question2590.45 challenging2590.84 legislative2591.57 independence2592.29 in2592.77 Massachusetts2592.84 comes2593.97 exactly2594.61 at2595.09 a2595.24 time2595.32 when2595.94 the2596.18 premier2596.26 legislative2596.9 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structural.2656.97 It2657.93 exists2658.09 to2658.41 prevent2658.57 the2658.97 consolidation2659.21 of2659.85 power,2660.01 and2660.97 preserve2661.13 liberty2661.53 by2661.93 maintaining2662.17 balanced2662.73 independence,2663.37 not2664.65 executive2664.97 oversight2665.77 of2666.41 the2666.65 legislature.2666.81 The2667.95 legislature2668.11 is2668.91 not2669.22 a2669.95 subordinate2670.18 agency.2671.14 It2671.7 is2671.86 a2671.95 co2672.18 equal2672.43 branch2672.66 of2672.99 government.2673.14 Indeed,2673.79 as2674.66 my2674.91 colleague2674.99 said,2675.47 the2676.03 first2676.18 among2676.51 equals.2676.91 It2677.79 crafts2677.95 laws,2678.34 allocates2678.74 funds,2679.31 and2679.7 oversees2680.03 the2681.21 functioning,2681.37 the2682.17 executive2682.33 branch.2682.89 Allowing2683.45 an2683.85 executive2684.01 official2684.41 to2684.73 audit2684.89 the2685.21 legislature2685.37 without2686.01 its2686.33 consent2686.49 undermines2687.29 this2687.85 autonomy2688.09 and2688.65 disrupts,2688.89 disrupts2689.85 the2690.41 constitutional2690.73 architecture.2691.29 Let2691.93 me2692.09 break2692.25 down2692.65 exactly2692.97 how.2693.45 First,2694.09 it2694.49 subverts2694.73 institutional2695.21 independence.2696.01 The2697.05 legislature2697.14 must2697.86 be2698.02 able2698.09 to2698.26 freely2698.41 manage,2698.74 its2700.09 internal2700.49 operations.2700.97 If2701.86 the2702.02 executive2702.26 can2702.66 audit2702.82 the2703.05 legislature,2703.22 uninvited,2704.18 it2704.82 introduces2704.97 hierarchy,2705.61 not2706.18 accountability,2706.41 subjecting2707.7 the2708.18 legislature2708.34 to2708.82 executive2709.05 standards2709.53 of2710.02 scrutiny,2710.26 where2711.46 scrutiny2711.7 erodes2712.18 the2712.42 principle2712.58 of2712.9 co2713.06 equal2713.3 branches2713.54 and2714.26 separation2714.5 of2714.9 powers.2715.06 Second,2716.02 it2716.66 disrupts2716.98 constitutional2718.02 checks2718.66 and2718.82 balances.2719.06 Separation2720.02 of2720.58 powers2720.66 divides2721.46 authority,2722.02 while2723.06 checks2723.38 and2723.7 balances2723.86 prevent2725.18 abuse2725.43 of2726.31 authority.2726.63 The2727.27 co2727.51 equal2727.66 branches2727.99 have2728.39 mutual2728.63 checks,2729.03 but2729.43 the2729.66 tools2729.74 are2730.07 not2730.22 the2730.39 same.2730.55 The2731.18 legislature2731.51 can2732.07 investigate2732.31 the2733.34 executive,2733.51 but2734.31 the2734.47 executive2734.63 cannot2735.18 investigate2735.59 or2736.07 audit2736.22 the2736.47 internal2736.63 workings2736.95 of2737.34 the2737.43 legislature2737.59 without2738.07 his2738.31 consent.2738.55 Instead,2739.4 the2739.72 executive2739.96 can2740.36 check2740.52 the2740.76 legislature2741 through2741.48 vetoes2741.72 of2742.04 legislation,2742.2 appointments,2742.84 and2743.24 overall2743.48 management2743.88 of2744.28 government.2744.36 Checks2745.32 and2745.56 balances2745.72 are2746.2 meant2746.28 to2746.52 create2746.68 friction,2747 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internal2808.81 debate,2809.29 prompt2809.77 self2810.17 censorship,2810.49 and2812.4 discourage2812.8 dissent,2813.36 against2814.48 the2814.89 executive.2815.13 Legislators2816.01 may2816.64 feel2816.89 that2817.13 internal2817.44 communications,2817.92 draft2818.96 proposals,2819.28 or2819.84 strategy2820.01 discussions2820.48 could2821.05 be2821.2 exposed2821.36 under2822.32 the2822.57 guise2822.72 of2823.05 an2823.13 audit.2823.28 Even2824.02 if2824.18 the2824.26 auditor2824.5 claims2824.82 to2825.06 be2825.3 reviewing2825.46 only2825.86 finances2826.18 or2826.66 processes,2826.9 the2827.46 possibility2827.7 of2828.26 expanded2828.42 scrutiny2828.9 can2829.78 make2829.94 lawmakers2830.26 self2830.9 censor,2831.14 especially2831.54 on2832.02 controversial2832.26 issues.2832.98 Staff2834.26 may2834.58 be2834.74 less2834.9 willing2835.14 to2835.46 put2835.62 things2835.78 in2836.02 writing2836.18 or2836.58 speak2836.82 frankly,2837.06 fearing2837.54 audit2837.94 trails.2838.26 In2839.18 these2839.43 ways,2839.59 audits2839.91 can2840.22 undermine2840.47 a2840.86 deliberative2841.03 body2841.51 that2842.31 have2842.47 the2843.03 need2843.18 to2843.43 have2843.66 frank2843.91 dialogue2844.22 about2844.79 challenging2845.11 policy2845.74 decisions.2846.14 Fourth2847.03 and2847.27 last,2847.43 audits2848.22 by2848.63 the2848.86 executive2848.95 set2849.51 a2849.82 dangerous2849.99 precedent.2850.47 Even2851.03 if2851.18 today's2851.34 audit2851.74 power2851.99 is2852.22 limited2852.39 to2852.79 finances,2852.86 once2853.79 the2854.03 precedent2854.11 is2854.59 set,2854.67 it2854.91 rarely2855.15 stops2855.47 there2855.79 to2856.27 mark2856.51 and2856.75 extend2856.91 to2857.31 communications2857.55 or2858.19 deliberations.2858.43 And2859.31 once2859.55 this2859.79 power2860.03 is2860.43 granted,2860.59 it's2860.99 difficult2861.23 to2861.71 contain2861.87 and2862.27 unlikely2862.51 to2862.99 be2863.07 reversed.2863.31 So2864.27 at2864.43 the2864.59 federal2864.67 level,2865.07 we2865.93 are2866.01 experiencing2866.18 an2866.82 unprecedented2866.97 grasp2867.86 of2868.26 power2868.41 by2868.73 the2868.89 executive.2869.05 Congress2870.26 has2870.66 allowed2870.73 the2871.05 executive2871.22 to2871.61 encroach2872.18 on2872.57 its2872.73 authority,2872.97 with2874.26 respect2874.49 to2874.82 laws,2874.97 spending,2875.38 and2875.78 appointments.2875.93 James2877.22 Madison2877.53 said2877.93 in2878.18 Federalist2878.34 512878.89 that2879.53 ambition2879.78 must2880.58 be2880.82 made2880.9 to2881.3 counteract2881.46 ambition.2882.1 What2883.06 he2883.22 meant2883.38 was2883.62 that2883.7 the2883.86 branches2883.94 of2884.34 government2884.42 should2884.82 jealously2885.06 guard2885.62 their2885.86 powers.2886.1 Today,2887.14 Congress2887.7 is2888.1 not2888.18 doing2888.42 that.2888.66 In2890.02 the2890.26 American2890.42 states,2890.82 especially2891.3 in2891.86 the2892.02 state2892.18 with2892.42 the2892.58 oldest2892.74 tradition2893.14 of2893.54 constitutional2893.99 democracy,2894.71 allowing2895.28 executive2895.76 encroachment2896.32 on2896.95 legislative2897.28 autonomy2897.99 should2899.03 be2899.28 avoided2899.36 at2899.84 all2899.91 costs.2900.15 Legislatures2901.03 are2902.32 a2902.39 bulwark2902.55 of2902.95 political2903.03 representation,2903.43 deliberation,2904.55 and2905.28 prevention2905.51 of2905.91 tyranny.2906.07 I2906.95 can2907.11 think2907.28 of2907.51 few,2908.29 if2908.45 any,2908.77 states2909.09 where2909.49 an2909.73 Executive2909.89 Branch2910.37 Auditor2910.69 intervenes2911.17 to2911.65 audit2911.81 the2912.13 Legislature2912.29 without2912.93 its2913.17 consent.2913.41 In2914.45 most2914.69 states,2914.93 Legislatures2915.49 maintain2916.05 internal2916.77 audit2917.17 offices2918.21 to2918.69 provide2918.85 transparency2919.17 with2919.81 independence,2920.05 or2921.09 they2921.33 give2921.49 consent2921.73 to2922.32 an2922.47 executive2922.64 officer2923.28 for2923.76 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however,2981.22 have2981.55 not2981.7 considered2981.95 the2982.34 implications2982.59 for2983.39 deliberative2983.63 representative2984.27 bodies2984.74 like2985.79 the2986.03 general2986.11 court.2986.51 They2987.22 may2987.47 not2987.63 consider2987.86 how2988.43 separation2988.91 of2989.39 powers2989.55 actually2990.03 works.2990.34 Questions2991.47 about2992.03 institutional2992.43 design2993.22 are2993.7 opaque2994.82 for2995.14 voters2995.38 with2995.86 busy2996.1 lives2996.5 and2996.98 varied2997.3 experiences.2997.7 So2998.74 for2998.9 this2999.14 reason,2999.38 voters3000.34 tend3000.74 to3000.98 rely3001.14 on3001.38 what3001.54 we3001.7 call3001.86 heuristics,3002.1 shortcuts,3003.06 when3004.18 parsing3004.42 constitutional3004.98 implications.3006.18 They3007.7 default3008.02 to3008.41 cues3008.66 like3009.3 audits3009.7 equal3010.18 good,3010.66 or3011.45 transparency3011.7 equals3012.58 accountability,3012.97 even3014.41 if3014.66 the3014.89 actual3015.06 mechanism3015.54 undermines3016.26 constitutional3016.97 norms3017.7 and3017.93 practices.3018.18 When3019.07 a3019.23 proposal3019.39 is3019.87 framed3020.03 as3020.83 a3020.99 transparency3021.23 reform,3021.95 it3022.75 tends3022.91 to3023.23 gain3023.31 support3023.55 regardless3024.03 of3025.07 whether3025.15 it3025.47 compromises3025.71 institutional3026.35 design.3027.07 That3028.03 is3028.27 why3028.35 constitutionally3028.75 designed3029.47 institutions3029.87 must3030.59 sometimes3030.91 defend3031.55 themselves,3031.95 not3032.83 because3033.07 they3033.39 are3033.47 above3033.63 scrutiny,3033.95 or3034.97 because3035.2 voters3035.45 lack3035.84 good3036.09 sense,3036.33 but3036.89 because3037.13 structural3037.53 integrity3038.01 of3038.41 democratic3038.64 institutions3039.2 cannot3040.01 always3040.33 be3040.64 left3040.81 to3041.36 popular3041.68 framing3042.16 that3042.89 leaves3043.05 out3043.45 important3043.61 dynamics.3044.16 To3045.29 summarize,3045.45 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3151.57 SPEAKER53151.57 -3151.57 So3151.57 the3151.97 so3152.53 it3153.01 could3153.18 be3153.34 used3153.49 in3154.05 a3154.22 political3154.38 sense.3154.7 It3155.01 could3155.09 be3155.26 politically3155.41 weaponized,3155.74 like3156.3 what3156.45 are3156.61 you3156.7 hiding?3156.78 I3157.26 need3157.41 to3157.66 see3157.82 that,3157.89 and3158.14 they3158.3 could3158.45 use3158.86 some,3159.57 powers3160.3 to3160.86 seek3161.26 more3161.66 information,3161.97 and3162.61 the3162.86 chilling3163.01 effect3163.41 is3164.32 exactly3164.4 as3164.88 I3165.12 mentioned,3165.28 you3167.28 are3167.52 less3167.76 likely3168 to3168.32 put3168.4 things3168.64 in3168.8 writing,3168.96 you3169.36 are3169.52 less3169.68 likely3169.92 to3170.24 exchange3170.4 ideas3172.56 with3172.96 your3173.2 staff,3173.36 because3174.24 the3174.64 auditor3174.8 might3175.2 say,3175.36 This3175.6 is3175.84 pertinent3176.08 to3177.18 my3177.99 audit,3178.3 to3178.7 see3178.78 how3178.95 you're3179.11 conducting3179.34 business,3179.74 and3180.07 are3180.22 you3180.39 hiding3180.55 things3180.86 from3181.03 the3181.26 public?3181.34 And3182.39 I3182.86 think,3182.95 you3184.39 know,3184.63 the3185.18 public3185.34 needs3185.66 to3185.99 understand,3186.07 and3186.7 this3186.86 is3187.11 something3187.26 very3187.59 hard3187.91 to3188.07 convey,3188.22 that,3189.12 a3189.92 deliberative3190.08 process3190.56 sometimes3190.96 requires,3191.44 people3192.8 to3193.12 speak3193.28 frankly3193.6 outside3194.16 the3194.8 public3194.96 eye.3196.08 And3197.2 that's3197.76 a3198 tough3198.16 13198.32 to3198.48 explain.3198.64 I3198.96 could3199.04 talk3199.2 about3199.36 some3199.6 ideas3199.76 on3200.08 that,3200.24 but3200.96 I3201.2 do3201.28 think,3201.44 it3202.46 is,3202.55 it3203.03 will3203.18 have3203.43 a3203.59 chilling3203.66 effect3203.98 when3204.39 the3204.63 Executive3204.78 can3205.26 interfere3205.74 and3206.94 pose3207.11 questions3207.43 and3207.91 reveal,3208.14 dialogue3209.51 that3209.98 you're3210.14 having.3210.39
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3230.01 SPEAKER13230.01 -3230.01 Senator3230.01 Brownsberger.3230.97
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3301.49 SPEAKER53301.49 -3301.49 Yeah,3301.49 I'm3302.13 very3302.45 concerned3302.61 about3303.01 institutional3303.33 dynamics.3303.97 You've3304.45 heard3304.61 from3304.77 an3304.93 expert3305.09 on3305.41 the3305.49 Massachusetts3305.65 Constitution.3306.21 What3306.93 I'm3307.09 concerned3307.25 is3307.73 how3307.89 in3308.29 practice3308.53 these3309.41 things3309.65 play3309.97 out,3310.21 and3311.26 it3311.66 is3311.89 incredibly3312.38 important3312.93 for3313.34 the3313.57 legislative3313.66 body3314.3 to3314.61 maintain3314.78 its3315.18 independence,3315.41 with3317.26 regard3317.49 to3317.82 their3317.89 oversight.3318.14 Yeah,3319.97 even3320.86 yeah,3321.82 to3322.38 waive3322.61 this,3322.86 your3324.06 legislature3324.3 the3324.78 legislature3324.93 would3325.49 be3325.74 giving3325.89 up3326.14 a3326.93 source3327.09 of3327.33 power3327.49 and3327.81 authority3327.97 that3328.53 is3328.69 vital3328.85 to3329.81 representative3330.37 government.3330.93 So3332.05 I,3332.61 you3333.17 know,3333.33 regardless3333.49 of3334.05 these3334.13 constitutional3334.29 issues,3334.93 I'm3335.57 looking3335.65 back3335.97 definitely3336.29 to3336.69 the3336.85 Federalist3336.93 Papers,3337.41 which3338.78 I3338.86 just3339.11 read3339.26 again,3339.51 with3340.63 some3340.78 students3340.95 recently.3341.34 There3342.7 are3342.95 some3343.11 important3343.34 dynamics3343.82 at3344.3 stake3344.47 here.3344.7
3346.7 SPEAKER43346.7 -3346.7 Thank3346.7 you.3347.03
3355.94 Thank3355.94 you,3356.18 madam3356.34 chair.3356.58 Thank3356.74 you,3356.98 professor.3357.62 I3358.1 appreciate3358.26 that.3358.66 We3360.58 have3360.74 not3360.9 been3361.06 reading3361.22 the3361.46 Federalist3361.54 Papers,3362.02 in3362.5 the3362.66 Senate.3362.74 We've3362.98 been3363.14 busy3363.3 with3363.54 our3363.62 ways3363.78 and3363.94 means3364.1 hearings3364.26 and3364.58 trying3364.74 to3364.98 put3365.06 together3365.22 a3365.54 budget,3365.62 but3365.94 I3366.66 appreciate3366.82 that3367.3 somebody3367.47 is,3367.86 as3368.34 we3368.59 wrestle3368.74 with3369.07 this.3369.22 To3370.59 follow-up3370.82 a3371.22 little3371.3 bit3371.47 on3371.63 senator3371.86 Comerford's3372.18 question3372.74 in3373.22 in3373.39 your3373.47 remarks,3373.7 you3375.14 know,3375.22 it's3375.39 been3375.63 said,3375.78 part3377.95 of3378.18 the3378.26 announced3378.43 scope,3379.84 which,3380.16 again,3380.56 chair3381.76 Friedman3382 had3382.4 mentioned3382.56 earlier3382.88 has3383.28 been3383.44 a3383.6 little3383.68 bit3383.92 squishy3384.16 on3384.56 trying3384.8 to3385.12 understand3385.2 what3385.6 the3385.84 full3385.92 scope3386.16 is3386.48 that3387.12 the3387.28 office3387.44 of3387.6 the3387.76 state3387.84 auditor3388.08 is3388.32 looking3388.48 for.3388.64 But3388.88 administrative3389.68 functions3390.24 versus3390.64 core3390.96 legislative3391.2 functions,3391.76 there3392.08 is3392.32 no3392.48 threat3392.64 with3393.31 administrative3393.55 functions.3394.18 And3394.51 what3394.66 I'm3394.74 hearing3394.91 from3395.14 you3395.31 and3395.47 what3395.63 I3395.7 heard3395.79 from3396.03 Professor3396.35 Friedman3396.66 earlier3397.14 as3397.47 well,3397.55 is3398.74 that3398.91 there3399.14 really3399.31 is3399.63 no3399.86 bright3400.18 line.3400.51 Right?3400.83 Core3401.07 legislative3401.31 functions,3401.95 you3403.14 know,3403.31 certainly3403.63 can3404.03 be3404.27 defined.3404.35 But3404.66 even3404.91 when3405.07 we3405.31 talk3405.39 about3405.55 core3405.79 administrative3406.11 functions,3407.43 those3407.91 things3408.23 that3408.47 are3408.71 seen,3408.87 and3409.99 that3410.15 we've3410.23 been3410.47 told,3410.63 you3410.95 know,3411.03 offer3411.35 no3411.75 threat,3412.07 that3412.95 there3413.11 actually3413.43 is3413.83 a3414.39 threat3414.63 to3415.03 constitutionality,3415.51 separation3416.47 of3416.95 powers3417.11 that3417.43 we3417.67 need3417.83 to3417.99 that3418.55 we3418.63 need3418.79 to3419.03 understand.3419.11 And3421.02 I3421.26 would3421.34 ask3421.49 you3421.82 more3422.3 specifically,3422.61 and3423.18 I3423.34 think3423.41 you3423.66 had3424.7 gone3424.78 down3425.02 that3425.18 road3425.26 talking3425.57 about3425.82 this3425.97 chilling3426.22 effect.3426.61 13428.05 of3428.3 the3428.45 concerns3428.61 that3429.18 we3429.34 have3429.41 and3429.66 that's3429.82 been3430.05 raised3430.3 to3430.61 us3430.7 from3430.93 others3431.18 is3431.57 that3431.74 that3432.47 the3432.55 Office3432.79 of3433.11 the3433.19 State3433.27 Auditor3433.59 doesn't3434.23 just3434.55 review3434.79 records,3435.19 right?3435.75 That3436.47 they3436.71 could3436.79 compel3437.03 records,3437.43 that3437.83 they3437.99 could3438.23 go3438.39 to3438.63 the3438.79 Judicial3438.87 Branch3439.35 and3439.67 force,3439.91 you3440.63 know,3440.79 certain3441.11 documents3441.43 to3441.99 be3442.15 presented3442.31 from3442.87 the3443.11 Legislature.3443.27 Can3444.31 you3444.47 talk3444.55 a3444.79 little3444.95 bit3445.19 about3445.35 that3445.51 as3445.67 we3445.83 kind3445.91 of3446.07 try3446.23 to3446.39 understand,3446.55 you3447.47 know,3447.64 where3447.8 the3448.03 threat3448.19 is3448.51 on3448.76 administrative3449.23 functions3450.03 versus3450.51 court3450.84 legislative3451.07 functions,3451.64 and3452.36 the3452.68 actual3452.84 practical3453.23 application3453.64 of3454.11 that,3454.28 what3454.51 that3454.68 would3454.84 mean3455.07 to3455.95 the3456.11 legislature3456.28 and,3457.07 you3457.64 know,3457.88 separation3458.11 of3458.59 powers,3458.76 principles?3459.16
3460.79 SPEAKER53460.79 -3460.79 Well,3460.79 I3461.11 I3461.43 agree3461.51 with,3461.75 the3462.31 previous3462.47 speaker3462.95 that3463.35 it's3463.75 very3464.07 hard3464.23 to3464.47 disentangle3464.71 administrative3465.35 from3465.99 your3466.47 policy3466.71 making3467.11 functions3467.43 because3467.75 you3467.99 rely3468.15 on3468.47 staff.3468.71 You've3469.99 set3470.31 up3470.47 certain3470.63 administrate3470.95 administrative3471.83 functions3472.39 to3472.71 inform3472.87 your3473.27 policy3473.43 making.3473.83 So3474.63 I3475.43 don't3475.59 think3475.76 it's3476.15 a3476.39 clear3476.55 line.3476.95 And3477.84 I3478.07 also3478.32 think3478.64 that3479.99 an3480.07 auditor3480.32 could3480.8 come3481.03 in3481.19 and3481.36 cross3481.59 that3482.07 line3482.23 willy3482.64 nilly,3482.88 back3484.55 and3484.8 forth,3485.03 because3485.51 it3485.76 is3485.91 kind3486.07 of3486.32 blurry,3486.39 and3487.67 using3487.91 whatever3488.86 prosecutorial3489.26 powers3490.14 that3490.54 they3490.62 have3490.86 to3491.26 obtain3491.42 that3491.82 information.3491.98 So,3492.94 I3495.02 wouldn't3495.42 draw3495.74 that3495.98 distinction3496.14 at3496.7 all.3496.78 The3497.18 legislature3497.58 should3498.3 have3498.54 the3498.7 full3498.86 authority3499.1 to3499.82 organize3499.98 themselves3500.54 in3501.11 any3501.34 manner3501.51 they3501.74 want.3502.07 And3503.03 even3503.18 if3503.51 they3503.82 don't3503.98 pay3504.3 attention,3504.55 as3504.95 I3505.18 said3505.34 earlier,3505.51 if3505.82 they3505.91 don't3506.07 pay3506.3 attention3506.55 to3506.86 the3507.03 auditor,3507.26 it's3509.34 still,3509.66 these3512.07 things3512.3 can3512.55 be3512.7 weaponized3513.03 in3514.39 various3514.47 ways.3514.95 And3515.51 that3516.71 starts3516.95 to3517.27 lead3517.43 to3517.59 the3517.83 chilling3517.91 effect3518.23 on3519.03 which3519.27 you3519.51 all3519.67 do3519.91 in3520.47 your3520.63 deliberations.3520.79 Maybe3521.59 we3521.91 shouldn't3521.99 talk3522.31 about3522.47 this,3522.71 or,3522.95 you3523.35 know,3523.59 keep,3523.91 you3524.39 know,3524.47 let's3525.35 meet3525.59 in3525.75 the3525.83 parking3525.99 lot3526.31 and3526.55 talk3526.71 about3526.95 this.3527.11 I3527.91 mean,3528.07 really3528.31 crazy3528.55 stuff3529.03 that3530.07 might3530.31 have3530.55 to3530.71 go3530.79 on.3530.95
3532.43 SPEAKER43532.43 -3532.43 Do3532.43 you3532.67 see3532.76 any,3533.91 any3535.39 way3535.55 in3535.8 which3536.03 an3536.51 auditor3536.67 could3537.23 get3537.55 to3537.8 a3537.95 place3538.11 where,3538.43 and3538.76 understanding,3539.07 and3539.64 you3539.71 had3539.8 mentioned3539.95 it3540.36 in3540.76 previous3540.99 speaker,3541.47 this3542.28 isn't,3542.43 this3542.76 is,3543.07 this3543.39 is3543.64 novel3543.88 territory.3544.28 This3544.67 has3544.84 not3544.99 been3545.15 done3545.32 in3545.55 any3545.71 other3545.88 state,3546.19 in3547.42 the3547.5 country.3547.74 Is3548.7 there3548.86 any3549.1 way3549.26 that3549.42 the3549.58 auditor3549.74 could3550.06 ever3550.22 get3550.46 to3550.62 a3550.78 place3550.86 where3551.26 they3551.42 audit3551.66 the3552.14 legislature?3552.38 Is3552.94 it3553.18 just3553.34 something3553.58 that,3553.98 because3555.1 of3555.5 separation3555.66 of3556.14 powers,3556.3 cannot3556.86 be3557.26 done,3557.42 or3558.06 or3558.38 is3558.62 there3558.78 something3559.02 there?3559.42
3560.62 SPEAKER53560.62 -3560.62 If3560.62 it's3560.78 in3561.02 the3561.18 constitution,3561.34 you3562.57 can3562.73 do3562.82 it.3563.05 And3563.45 it's3563.61 not.3563.78 But3564.26 it's3564.41 not3564.66 in3564.82 the3564.89 constitution3565.05 Right.3565.78 As3566.01 far3566.18 as3566.41 I3566.49 know.3566.66 I'm3566.82 I3567.14 am3567.21 not3567.38 an3567.53 expert3567.7 on3567.93 the3568.09 Massachusetts3568.18 constitution.3568.57 I've3569.05 read3569.21 it.3569.45 Previous3570.57 speaker,3571.14 professor3571.78 Friedman3572.09 said3572.49 it's3572.66 not3572.82 in3573.05 the3573.14 constitution.3573.21 So3574.09 and3574.41 if3574.66 it's3574.82 in3574.89 the3575.05 con3575.14 you3575.3 might3575.45 hear3575.61 from3575.78 a3575.93 speaker3576.01 later3576.26 today3576.49 who3576.82 might3576.97 talk3577.14 about3577.38 that.3577.53 But3579.24 I3579.48 as3579.88 far3580.12 as3580.28 I3580.44 know,3580.52 the3582.52 state3582.76 constitution3583.56 do3584.2 not3584.36 have3584.44 that3584.68 in3584.84 the3584.92 constitution.3585.08
3586.36 SPEAKER43586.36 -3586.36 And3586.36 do3586.6 you3586.68 think3586.76 the3586.92 framers3587.08 envisioned3587.56 the3588.6 decision3589.24 being3591.48 incumbent3591.72 upon3592.04 the3592.28 legislature3592.36 or3593.48 the3593.72 courts3593.8 or3594.45 a3594.76 combination3594.84 of3595.24 both,3595.41 you3596.05 know,3596.2 as3596.36 we3596.53 kind3596.68 of3596.84 wrestle3596.93 with,3597.32 okay,3597.57 is3597.8 this3598.05 a3598.2 decision3598.28 that3598.68 we3598.84 make?3599.01 Is3599.32 it3599.48 something3599.64 that3599.96 the3600.13 courts3600.2 decide?3600.68 Obviously,3601.72 you3602.84 know,3603.09 it's3603.16 unconstitutional3603.48 according3605.09 to3605.41 you3605.57 and3605.8 the3605.96 previous3606.05 speaker.3606.45 What3607.96 did3608.13 the3608.28 framers3608.45 envision?3608.84 Is3609.62 it3609.7 a3609.78 decision3609.94 for3610.34 us3610.58 to3610.66 make,3610.74 or3610.98 the3611.14 courts,3611.22 or3611.54 both?3612.18
3614.1 SPEAKER53614.1 -3614.1 Well,3614.1 ultimately,3614.58 they3615.22 would3615.46 probably3615.62 say,3615.94 ultimately,3616.26 it's3616.74 the3616.9 courts,3617.06 but3617.46 this3618.02 is3618.26 getting3618.5 to3618.82 Federalist3619.54 51.3620.1 Madison3621.86 expected3622.57 there3623.22 to3623.45 be3623.53 friction3623.78 between3624.34 the3624.57 branches.3624.74 So,3625.05 if3625.3 13625.38 branch3625.61 tried3625.93 to3626.09 encroach3626.34 the3626.66 other,3626.82 they3627.22 expected3627.38 the3627.78 elbows3628.01 to3628.34 be3628.41 thrown3628.57 back3628.89 and3629.14 say,3629.3 no,3629.45 you3629.7 can't3629.86 do3630.09 that.3630.26 And3630.97 the3631.05 other3631.22 branch3631.45 says,3631.7 yes,3631.86 we3632.09 can.3632.26 Who3633.53 adjudicates?3634.01 The3635.95 courts.3636.19 Sometimes3637.23 the3637.95 legislature3638.19 will3638.75 win3638.91 outright,3639.15 because3639.63 the3639.87 executive3640.51 will3640.99 back3641.15 out.3641.39 But,3642.11 they3642.75 did3643.07 envision3643.39 these3643.95 types3644.19 of3644.43 constitutional3644.59 fights.3645.39
3647.08 SPEAKER43647.08 -3647.08 Thank3647.08 you.3647.24 Thank3647.6 you.3647.95
3654.36 SPEAKER13654.36 -3654.36 Thank3654.36 you.3654.52 You3654.91 you3655.24 said3655.39 something3655.56 interesting,3655.95 around3657.24 the3657.8 checks3658.04 and3658.36 balances,3658.52 and3658.99 you3659.24 said,3659.39 just3659.8 wanna3660.04 make3660.36 sure3660.43 I3660.6 understand3660.76 this,3661.16 that3661.32 The3662.07 executive's3662.47 check3663.03 and3663.27 balance3663.51 is3664.07 to3664.31 veto,3665.51 modify,3667.03 send3667.67 back3667.99 laws3668.71 that3669.11 the3669.27 legislature3669.43 makes.3670.07 And3670.39 the3670.55 legislature,3670.79 the3671.51 check3671.67 and3671.83 balance,3671.99 on3673.99 the3674.15 legislature3674.31 is3675.91 also3676.86 the3677.11 ballot3677.34 box.3677.74
3678.55 SPEAKER33678.55 -3678.55 Yes.3678.55
3678.86 SPEAKER13678.86 -3678.86 And3678.86 those3679.11 are3679.63 the3680.14 checks3682.39 and3682.7 balance,3682.78 and3683.11 the3684.46 courts3684.7 determine3686.63 the3687.51 validity3687.66 and3688.3 the3688.55 constitutionality3688.7 of3689.51 the3689.66 laws.3689.74 That's3690.11 their3690.43 check3691.15 and3691.39 balance.3691.55 Is3692.35 there3692.59 is3692.83 that3693.07 basically3693.55 what3694.03 it3694.27 comes3694.35 down3694.59 to,3694.83 that3695.07 that's3695.31 how3695.63 those3696.91 checks3697.15 and3697.47 balances3697.63 work?3698.03 Are3698.35 there3698.51 other3698.75 ways3699.15 that,3699.71 I3701.87 didn't3702.03 mention3702.27 or3702.67 that3702.91 we3703.07 think3703.23 about3703.47 separation3704.47 and3704.8 how3705.11 to3705.24 check3705.36 how3705.84 each3706.08 branch3706.32 checks3706.72 the3707.04 other?3707.2
3708.95 SPEAKER53708.95 -3708.95 Well,3708.95 so3710.47 if3711.36 you're3711.6 getting3711.76 at3712.08 let3712.8 me3712.95 see3713.28 if3713.36 I3713.52 understand.3713.6 So3714.16 Congress,3715.76 the3716.73 legislatures3716.97 definitely3718.01 have3718.33 the3718.49 power3718.57 to3718.89 oversee3718.97 the3719.37 executive.3719.45 That's3719.85 I3720.41 mean,3720.49 they3720.73 decide3722.01 how3722.33 the3722.49 money3722.57 is3722.81 spent,3722.97 they3723.45 can3723.61 oversee3723.77 the3724.25 executive3724.41 that3724.97 performs3725.37 those3725.77 functions.3726.09 There's3726.73 nothing3726.97 that3727.29 I3727.45 can3727.53 see3727.69 in3727.93 the3728.01 Constitution3728.17 that3728.73 does3729.3 it3729.61 the3729.86 other3729.93 way,3730.18 Massachusetts3730.74 Constitution3731.3 or3731.7 the3731.93 Federal3732.01 Constitution.3732.34
3736.74 Yeah,3736.74 I3737.05 mean,3737.14 you3738.26 know,3738.34 some3738.57 of3738.74 this3738.82 stuff3738.97 is3739.22 very3739.53 explicit3739.86 in3741.22 these3741.3 Constitutions3741.53 about3742.18 what3742.41 powers3742.66 they3742.89 have,3743.05 have,3743.16 but3743.24 some3743.4 of3743.56 it3743.6 is3743.64 implied,3743.88 like3744.36 I3744.6 said.3744.68 If3744.92 you,3745 if3745.72 the3746.28 Massachusetts3746.52 legislature3747.4 has3747.88 the3748.12 power3748.2 of3748.36 spending,3748.52 it3749.8 implies3750.04 all3750.68 these3750.84 other3751.08 things.3751.48 I3752.68 don't3752.84 see3753 anything3753.16 in3753.48 that3753.56 constitution3753.8 that3754.36 says3754.6 that3756.22 the3756.61 executive3756.86 has3757.49 an3757.82 implied3757.89 power3758.38 to3759.34 audit3759.57 the3759.89 legislature.3760.05 I3760.93 don't3761.09 see3761.26 anything3761.49 there.3761.82 So,3762.54 if3762.7 that's3762.86 what3763.09 you're3763.26 asking,3763.49 yeah.3763.97 There's3764.93 nothing3765.49 you3765.82 can3765.97 even3766.14 apply3766.38 from3767.18 those3767.41 powers,3767.57 from3768.02 those3768.18 explicit3768.42 powers.3768.9
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3773.22 SPEAKER53773.22 -3773.22 the3773.22 Yeah,3773.78 I3773.94 mean,3774.1 if3774.82 the3774.98 voters3775.14 are3775.54 not,3775.62 satisfied3776.98 with3777.54 your3777.7 work3777.86 here,3778.1 I3778.58 mean,3778.66 that3778.9 is3779.14 why3779.3 there's3779.62 frequent3779.94 elections,3780.34 to3782.32 to3782.8 hold3782.95 you3783.84 folks3784.07 accountable.3784.39
3787.19 SPEAKER43787.19 -3787.19 Thank3787.19 you,3787.43 Madam3787.76 Chair.3787.99 Professor,3788.64 just3788.95 13789.19 last3789.43 question.3789.84 You3790.88 used3791.11 the3791.36 word,3791.43 and3791.76 it3791.91 struck3792.15 me3792.47 when3792.71 you3792.95 said3793.11 it,3793.28 but,3793.43 weaponized.3794.42 It's3795.62 a3795.78 strong3795.94 strong3796.34 word3796.74 that,3796.98 you3797.94 know,3798.1 as3798.34 as3798.5 much3798.74 as3798.9 sometimes3799.94 I3800.42 feel3800.5 like,3800.74 alright.3800.82 We're3801.06 making3801.22 this3801.54 strictly3801.7 academic3802.18 argument,3802.66 and3803.06 we're3803.22 going3803.54 down3803.7 we're3804.1 going3804.34 down3804.5 a3804.74 rabbit3804.9 hole3805.22 here,3805.7 and,3806.02 you3806.99 know,3807.23 your3807.39 average3807.64 voter,3807.88 your3808.2 average3808.28 person3808.59 is3808.91 looking3808.99 at3809.23 saying,3809.39 look.3809.55 What's3809.8 the3809.95 threat?3810.11 What3810.43 is3810.51 the3810.76 problem3810.91 here?3811.32 Right?3811.64 Talking3811.95 about3812.2 weaponizing3812.51 an3813.32 audit.3813.55 Just3814.11 an3814.36 audit.3814.59 Right?3814.99 And3815.23 you3815.47 and3815.55 you3815.64 got3815.8 into3815.95 that3816.2 a3816.36 little3816.51 bit.3816.68 But3818.8 interested3819.12 in,3820.48 you3820.88 know,3821.12 and3821.2 you3821.52 mentioned3821.76 it3822.08 earlier,3822.24 but3823.12 the3823.28 parallels3823.44 here3823.92 between3824.56 what3824.88 we're3825.04 seeing3825.28 at3825.76 a3825.92 federal3826.08 level3826.4 and3827.12 the3827.28 abdication3827.44 of3827.92 powers3828.08 from3828.56 the3828.88 legislature3829.04 to3829.92 the3830.32 executive3830.48 and3831.8 how3832.03 seemingly3832.99 insignificant3833.55 moments3834.51 of,3834.91 you3835.32 know,3835.55 it's3836.11 just3836.28 this3836.51 or3836.76 it's3836.91 just3836.99 that,3837.23 could3837.88 potentially3838.19 be3838.68 leading3838.84 into3839.23 major3840.28 constitutional3840.91 problems3841.55 in3841.95 this3842.03 country.3842.28 Could3842.91 you3843.07 elaborate3843.23 a3843.71 little3843.8 bit3844.03 more3844.28 on3844.68 you3845.31 know,3845.39 are3845.55 we3845.71 right3845.79 to3846.27 be3846.43 concerned3847.39 about3847.87 that3848.11 at3848.43 this3848.59 moment3848.75 in3849.07 time3849.23 for3849.47 a3849.63 reason?3849.71 That,3851.15 you3851.87 know,3852.03 using3852.27 that3852.59 word3852.75 weaponized3852.99 is3853.87 powerful,3854.11 and3854.99 it3855.71 struck3855.87 me.3856.11 You3858.07 know,3858.8 what3858.88 are3859.03 the3859.11 implications3859.36 here3859.84 of3860.07 just3860.23 a3860.47 simple3860.55 audit3860.95 then3861.91 turning3862.16 into3862.55 something3864.64 more,3865.03 you3866.07 know,3866.23 more3867.36 serious,3867.59 and3868.16 what3868.47 are3868.64 the3868.71 parallels3868.88 that3869.28 we're3869.43 seeing3869.59 on3870.32 the3870.39 federal3870.47 level?3870.88
3871.71 SPEAKER53871.71 -3871.71 Yeah,3871.71 well,3871.95 you3872.11 know,3872.35 there's3872.51 enough3872.75 friction3873.07 to3873.39 go3873.47 around3873.55 just3873.87 arguing3874.19 with3874.51 the3874.67 executive3874.75 over3875.15 policy,3875.39 but3876.11 some3876.67 of3876.83 what3877.15 we3877.31 weaponized3877.63 is,3878.27 arguments3878.91 about3879.39 processes,3879.63 again,3880.35 that3880.67 are3880.83 beyond3880.99 the3881.39 scope3881.47 of3881.79 what3881.95 the3882.59 auditor3882.75 be.3883.23 You3883.47 know,3883.55 we3883.71 live3883.87 in3884.03 an3884.19 age3884.27 when3884.51 media3885.15 is3885.47 fragmented,3885.71 things3887.09 circulate3888.38 widely,3888.86 and3890.7 you3891.26 see3891.49 a3891.66 lot3891.74 of3891.89 performative3892.06
3896.06 work3896.06 members3896.7 of3897.09 Congress,3897.26
3900.06 who3900.06 use3900.3 many3902.13 scandals,3902.45 whatever3902.93 you3903.25 want3903.33 to3903.45 call3903.57 it,3903.81 to3904.37 call3904.61 attention3904.85 to3905.33 themselves.3905.49 And3906.53 I3907.25 think,3907.41 you3907.81 know,3908.05 audits3908.37 can3908.69 present3908.85 an3909.25 opportunity3909.33 for3910.29 doing3910.53 things3910.77 like3911.01 that.3911.17 I3911.41 mean,3911.57 not3912.45 specifically3912.53 to3913.17 this3913.25 auditor,3913.51 but3913.91 a3914.07 future3914.14 auditor3914.55 can3915.74 use3915.99 this3916.14 to3916.3 advance3916.86 their3917.18 ambitions,3918.07 or3918.86 to3919.27 embarrass,3919.59 the3921.59 legislature3921.74 for3922.7 their3922.79 own3922.95 purposes.3923.11 So3923.91 beyond3924.14 the3924.47 constitutional3924.63 stuff,3925.27 there's3926.47 definitely3926.95 a3927.66 lot3927.82 of3928.07 grounds3928.87 for3929.19 worrying3929.35 that3930.07 this3930.31 could3930.47 be3930.63 used3930.79 in3931.03 ways,3931.27 that,3932.55 advance3934.95 political3935.75 ambitions3936.23 in3936.63 ways3936.79 that3937.03 undermine3937.27 the3937.67 institution.3937.83
3939.43 SPEAKER43939.43 -3939.43 Understood.3939.43 And3940.71 I3940.95 do3941.11 want3941.27 to3941.43 underscore3941.59 too,3941.91 it's3942.15 not3942.31 about,3942.55 you3943.13 know,3943.28 this3943.45 particular3943.76 auditor3944.09 or3944.41 this3944.57 particular3944.72 office3945.53 of3945.76 the3945.84 state3945.93 auditor.3946.16 For3946.49 for3946.72 me3946.97 and3947.2 I3947.45 think3947.53 for3947.76 us3947.93 throughout3948.16 discussions,3948.57 it's3949.53 been3949.68 principles3950.01 over3950.41 personality.3950.72 It's3951.36 the3951.61 principles3951.76 Yeah.3952.57 Of3952.89 an3953.05 audit3953.28 and3953.93 and3954.24 the3954.41 potential,3954.57 constitutional3955.84 issues3956.57 that3957.36 we3957.6 owe3958 to3958.24 the3958.4 voters.3958.56 We3958.96 owe3959.12 it3959.28 to3959.44 them3959.52 to3959.64 get3959.76 it3959.92 right.3960.08 So3960.32 appreciate3960.72 that.3961.12 Thank3961.36 you.3961.6
3968.72 SPEAKER73968.72 -3968.72 Thanks,3968.72 madam3969.12 chair.3969.36 I3970.48 was3970.64 actually,3970.88 going3971.96 in3972.2 a3972.28 similar3972.44 direction,3972.93 as3974.28 senator3974.53 Feeney.3975.16 You3976.13 you3976.36 talked3976.61 you3977.01 opened3977.16 with3977.57 talking3977.96 about3978.28 what3978.53 was3978.68 happening3978.93 in3979.24 Washington3979.41 DC,3979.89 and3980.2 you3980.44 said3980.68 that3980.93 states3981.64 had3982.05 a3982.28 particular3982.44 responsibility3983.09 at3984.13 this3984.36 moment,3984.53 given3986.07 the3986.71 encroachment3986.95 of3987.59 the3987.75 executive3987.91 onto3988.95 the3989.59 powers3989.75 of3990.15 Congress3990.39 currently3990.87 in3991.27 Washington.3991.51 Could3992.39 you3992.63 talk3992.79 more3993.11 about3993.43 that,3994.07 about3994.55 what3994.79 you3995.35 believe3995.51 states,3995.99 should3997.75 and3997.99 must3998.23 be3998.55 doing3998.71 at3999.11 this3999.27 moment3999.51 in4001.11 our4001.18 nation's4001.34 history?4001.66
4002.78 SPEAKER54002.78 -4002.78 Yeah,4002.78 so4003.03 definitely.4003.26 States,4003.98
4005.59 SPEAKER64005.59 -4005.59 14005.59
4005.7 SPEAKER54005.7 -4005.7 of4005.7 the4005.82 beauties4005.91 of4006.3 the4006.39 Constitution4006.46 is4006.86 federalism,4007.11 and4008.22 states,4008.63 can4010.94 be4011.11 laboratories4011.34 of4011.91 democracy.4012.14 They4013.11 can4013.34 demonstrate4013.82 ways4014.79 of4015.03 doing4015.11 things4015.51 in4015.75 a4015.83 constitutional4016.07 manner4016.63 that4017.27 Congress4017.99 might4018.39 eventually4018.55 emulate.4019.19 It's4019.75 also4019.99 states4020.87 are4021.27 the4021.51 places4021.67 where4021.99 a4022.23 lot4022.31 of4022.47 members4022.55 of4022.79 Congress4023.03 get4023.43 their4023.59 first4023.75 experiences.4024.07 So4025.75 just4026.15 in4026.95 that4027.19 sense,4027.35 the4028.01 state4028.24 legislatures4028.48 are4028.97 important4029.05 for4029.61 our4030.01 national4030.16 politics.4030.64 But4031.68 I4031.93 do4032.01 think4032.24 that4032.57 they,4032.89 today4033.28 especially,4033.76 in4035.36 standing4035.61 up4036.01 for4036.24 their4037.2 legislative4037.45 power,4038.16 they4039.05 can4039.2 set4039.45 an4039.68 example4039.84 for4040.41 what4040.64 Congress,4040.97 our4041.99 national4042.23 government,4042.71 could4043.19 and4043.51 should4043.75 be4044.07 doing,4044.15 in4044.55 my4044.71 view.4044.95 So,4045.67 Massachusetts4047.59 is,4048.87 as4049.75 I4049.91 mentioned,4050.07 been4051.83 doing4051.99 this4052.23 for4052.39 a4052.55 long4052.63 time,4052.87 and4054.01 they4054.89 should4055.13 demonstrate4056.48 to4057.05 the4057.2 rest4057.28 of4057.53 the4057.61 country4057.68 what4058.32 it4058.57 means4058.72 to4059.53 really4059.84 work4061.53 under4061.76 the4062.09 Constitution4062.24 and4063.2 have4063.44 legislative4063.76 body4064.8 that4065.53 guards4065.84 its4066.4 powers4066.72 jealously.4067.28 The4068.81 way4068.97 Madison4069.21 envisioned,4069.69 the4070.09 way4070.17 John4070.41 Adams4070.65 envisioned.4071.05 So4072.17 I4072.49 do4072.65 think4072.81 there's4073.05 a4073.29 role4073.37 for4073.61 state4073.77 legislation,4074.25 not4074.89 just4075.05 Massachusetts,4075.29 all4076.25 of4076.41 them4076.57 should4076.81 emphasize,4077.77 at4079.69 this4079.85 moment4080.09 we4080.76 are4081.07 not4081.16 just4081.39 going4081.64 to4081.88 give4082.84 in4083.16 to4083.32 the4083.55 governor,4083.88 or4084.76 to4084.99 the4086.04 bureaucracy,4086.2 or4086.91 to4087.16 some4087.32 outside4087.64 organization.4088.43 We4089.95 are4090.2 the4090.43 people's4090.52 representatives.4090.99 I4091.64 think4091.72 that's4091.95 essential4092.52 at4092.99 this4093.07 moment4093.24 in4093.55 time.4093.72
4095.36 SPEAKER74095.36 -4095.36 Thank4095.36 you.4095.6
4101.28 SPEAKER14101.28 -4101.28 Thank4101.28 you.4101.6 We4102.08 very4102.48 much4102.72 appreciate4103.04 you4103.6 coming4103.76 and4104.08 for4104.32 your4104.48 testimony,4104.72 and4106.97 know4107.45 you've4107.61 come4107.93 a4108.18 distance,4108.34 so4108.65 especially4109.61 appreciate4110.18 it.4110.41 Thank4110.97 you4111.22 so4111.45 much,4111.61 professor.4111.85
4117.93 SPEAKER44117.93 -4117.93 Okay.4117.93
4121.9 SPEAKER14121.9 -4121.9 Our4121.9 next4122.22 speaker,4122.54 I4124.22 believe,4124.38 is,4124.94 remote,4125.98
4131.26 Jean4131.26 Kempthorn.4131.74
4136.18 This4136.18 will4136.74 be4137.06 our4137.3 final4137.45 speaker4137.85 on4138.18 this4138.34 matter.4138.74 Jean4139.53 Kempthorne4139.94 is4140.49 a4140.66 retired4140.81 attorney4141.38 and4141.7 mediator.4141.94 For4143.06 304143.3 years,4143.45 she4143.85 worked4144.02 in4144.26 the4144.41 criminal4144.57 justice4144.98 system4145.45 as4146.18 a4146.41 federal4146.49 and4146.9 state4147.06 prosecutor4147.61 and4148.09 private4148.41 post4148.81 conviction4149.13 defense4149.77 counsel.4150.17 For4151.13 the4151.29 first4151.45 decade4151.69 of4152.09 her4152.17 career,4152.33 she4152.65 practiced4152.89 civil4153.37 litigation4153.69 at4154.17 the4154.41 Boston4154.49 firm4154.97 Hill4155.29 and4155.53 Barlow.4155.69 She4156.81 served4157.05 as4157.37 a4157.53 member4157.61 of4157.85 the4157.93 Massachusetts4158.17 State4158.89 Ethics4159.29 Commission4159.77 and4160.25 as4160.49 vice4160.65 chair4160.97 of4161.21 the4161.37 Board4161.45 of4161.69 Common4161.93 Cause4162.33 Massachusetts.4162.65 Massachusetts.4163.19 Miss4163.86 Kempthorn4164.55 is4164.94 a4165.19 leading4165.27 advocate4165.59 for4166.06 reform4166.3 of4166.7 the4166.78 Massachusetts4166.94 legislature4167.66 currently4168.63 serving4169.02 on4169.34 the4169.51 steering4169.66 committee4170.06 of4170.94 the4171.02 Coalition4171.27 to4171.98 Reform4172.15 our4172.47 Legislature.4172.7 She4173.9 was4174.15 cochair4174.39 of4174.78 the4174.94 legislative4175.02 reform4175.66 working4176.23 group4176.55 convened4176.94 by4177.43 progressive4177.66 of4178.68 Massachusetts4179 and4180.12 coauthor4180.44 of4181 the4181.16 20214181.32 report4182.2 titled4183 the4183.4 Massachusetts4183.56 legislature4184.52 democracy4185.24 in4185.96 decline.4186.2 She4187.24 earned4187.48 an4187.72 AB4187.96 from4188.28 Harvard4188.52 College4188.92 and4189.32 a4189.56 JD4189.64 from4190.04 the4190.36 University4190.52 of4191 California,4191.16 Berkeley4191.8 School4192.28 of4192.52 Law.4192.76 Welcome,4193.44 Ms.4193.84 Kempthorn.4194.16
4198.32 Oops,4198.32 we4198.88 can't4199.03 hear4199.36 you.4199.52
4204.8 SPEAKER54204.8 -4204.8 I4204.8 think4204.95 she's4205.2 she4205.68 is4205.91 muted.4206.07
4206.48 SPEAKER14206.48 -4206.48 She's4206.48 muted,4206.72 I4207.11 believe.4207.28
4210.85 Can4210.85 you4211.09 unmute4211.25 yourself4212.93
4213.33 SPEAKER84213.33 -4213.33 or4213.33 do4213.57
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4217.49 SPEAKER44217.49 -4217.49 You4217.49 have4217.65
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4225.4 SPEAKER64225.4 -4225.4 Okay.4225.4 I4226.72 had4227.24 earlier,4227.4 but4227.89 it4228.13 it4228.2 wouldn't4228.44 allow4228.68 me4229.01 to4229.16 to4229.4 do4229.48 it.4229.65 But4229.89 okay.4230.05 Thank4230.36 you4230.6 very4230.76 much,4231.09 madam4231.4 chair4231.8 and4232.52 senators4232.76 Commerford,4233.4 Feeney,4233.97 and4234.36 Brownsberger4234.52 for4235.4 this4235.56 opportunity4235.8 to4236.92 address4237.08 the4237.32 subcommittee4237.48 and4238.12 for4238.28 the4238.44 courtesy4238.6 of4239 allowing4239.16 me4239.48 to4240.12 appear4240.2 remotely.4240.6 Again,4241.4 for4241.64 the4241.88 record,4241.96 my4242.2 name4242.36 is4242.52 Jean4242.76 Kempthorn.4243.08 In4244.6 its4244.76 report4245.08 last4245.56 year4245.88 recommending4246.36 that4246.92 the4247.16 legislature4247.32 not4248.2 enact4248.52 the4249 auditors4249.16 initiative4249.64 petition,4250.2 the4251.41 majority4251.65 members4252.05 of4252.45 the4252.53 Special4252.69 Joint4253.09 Committee4253.41 on4253.81 Initiative4253.98 Petitions4254.45 concluded4255.09 that4255.57 what4256.38 this4256.61 initiative4256.94 petition4257.41 seeks4258.05 to4258.45 do4258.61 is4259.65 to4259.98 transfer4260.3 by4260.94 statute4261.18 authority4262.05 explicitly4262.85 vested4263.57 by4264.3 the4264.53 Constitution4264.69 and4265.41 the4265.49 Legislative4265.73 Branch,4266.38 not4267.31 to4267.47 the4267.63 electorate,4268.75 but4268.91 to4269.15 the4269.31 executive4269.55 branch,4270.03 thereby4271.23 violating4271.79 the4272.35 foundational4272.67 constitutional4273.31 principle4273.95 of4274.83 separation4275.15 of4275.71 powers.4275.87 Now4277.71 a4277.95 year4278.19 later,4278.51 notwithstanding4279.23 the4280.11 legislature's4280.19 opposition4281.07 and4281.94 the4282.1 tremendous4282.34 logistical4282.98 hurdles4283.53 inherent4284.41 in4284.9 the4285.06 ballot4285.22 initiative4285.77 process,4286.26 the4287.22 public4287.38 overwhelmingly4287.85 voted4288.57 to4288.98 allow4289.06 the4289.38 state4289.53 auditor4289.77 to4290.65 audit4290.9 the4291.3 legislature.4291.45 Now4292.9 the4293.14 legislature4293.22 again4294.02 invokes4294.34 the4294.81 separation4294.98 of4295.45 powers4295.69 doctrine4296.1 as4297 a4297.24 shield4297.32 against4297.96 the4298.36 will4298.44 of4298.68 the4298.76 people.4298.92 I4300.04 submit4300.36 there4300.68 are4300.92 at4301.56 least4301.64 24301.96 problems4302.12 with4302.92 the4303.16 majority's4303.24 conclusion,4304.12 and4306.12 its4306.52 dire4306.76 predictions.4307.08 First,4308.2 it4308.52 is4308.76 not4308.92 true4309.16 that4309.4 the4310.99 audit4311.15 power4311.47 in4311.78 the4311.95 Commonwealth4312.02 of4312.59 Massachusetts4312.66 is4313.78 explicitly4314.02 vested4314.59 by4314.99 the4315.15 state4315.31 constitution4315.63 and4316.19 the4316.35 legislative4316.51 branch.4317.06 In4317.86 fact,4318.02 it4318.35 is4318.43 vested4318.59 in4318.99 the4319.15 office4319.31 of4319.55 the4319.7 state4319.86 auditor.4320.1 Second,4321.31 it4322.02 is4322.19 very4322.43 difficult4322.74 to4323.31 see4323.39 how4324.34 a4324.58 report4324.74 and4325.14 recommendations,4325.46 which4326.26 are4326.5 all4326.74 the4326.98 auditor4327.14 can4327.62 issue,4327.78 would4328.58 limit4328.82 the4329.22 power4329.38 of4329.86 either4330.02 the4330.34 voters4330.5 or4331.78 the4332.02 legislature4332.34 in4332.98 any4333.14 respect.4333.46 To4334.42 the4334.66 contrary,4334.82 the4335.38 public4335.54 having4336.02 more4336.34 information4336.74 about4337.78 how4338.1 and4338.43 why4338.59 the4338.82 legislature4339.06 performs4339.94 in4340.82 the4340.98 view4341.15 of4341.39 many4341.55 so4342.27 dismally4342.51 on4343.31 so4343.63 many4343.78 measures4344.02 will4344.51 restore4344.74 power4345.55 where4346.1 it4346.35 belongs.4346.51 Digging4348.02 into4348.43 the4348.66 constitutional4348.9 question,4349.63 it's4350.02 important4350.27 to4350.66 keep4350.82 in4351.06 mind4351.15 that4351.98 the4352.22 Massachusetts4352.38 state4353.02 auditor4353.34 is4353.74 not4353.98 some4354.3 rogue4354.62 agency.4355.02 The4356.06 auditor4356.22 is4356.62 a4356.86 constitutional4357.02 officer,4357.82 duly4358.7 elected4359.1 by4359.66 the4359.82 people,4359.98 statewide.4360.78 The4362.06 state4362.22 auditor4362.54 role4363.1 was4363.5 created,4363.74 it's4364.46 true,4364.7 by4365.48 the4365.72 general4365.8 court4366.36 in4366.84 1849.4367.16 So4368.44 it4368.76 wasn't4368.93 in4369.24 John4369.72 Adams4369.97 or,4370.52 you4371.32 know,4371.4 the4371.8 17804372.05 founders.4373.09 It4373.97 wasn't4374.13 in4374.52 their4374.68 mind.4374.93 It4375.56 was4375.65 elevated4376.13 to4376.84 constitutional4377.01 status4377.97 44379.12 years4379.36 after4379.84 its4380.24 creation.4380.48 The4381.76 state4381.92 constitutional4382.32 convention4383.12 held4384.16 in4384.48 18534384.72 not4386.72 only4386.96 decided4387.36 to4387.84 recognize4388.08 the4389.2 state4389.44 auditor4389.84 as4390.32 a4390.48 constitutional4390.64 officer,4391.6 but4392.8 chose4393.03 to4393.52 remove4393.84 from4394.48 the4394.72 legislature4394.88 the4396.48 power4396.72 of4397.03 appointment4397.28 of4398.4 the4398.64 state4398.8 audit4399.2
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power4597.92 to4598.16 enact4598.4 laws,4598.8 statutes,4599.28 and4599.68 ordinances,4599.84 the4600.64 power4600.8 to4601.12 tax,4601.28 the4602.23 police4602.39 power,4602.86 the4603.59 power4603.74 to4604.06 appropriate4604.23 public4604.78 monies,4605.19 to4606.15 erect4606.39 and4606.78 constitute4607.02 courts,4607.74 and4608.47 so4608.78 forth.4609.02 It's4609.43 pretty4609.66 expressed,4610.15 right,4610.63 in4610.86 part4612.39 24612.7 of4613.1 the4613.26 constitution.4613.43 The4615.43 amendment4615.66 to4616.88 chapter4617.04 11,4617.6 section4618 12,4618.48 enacted4620.4 by4620.88 the4621.12 people,4621.28 does4622.24 not4622.56 grant4622.88 the4623.28 state4623.44 auditor4623.76 any4624.72 of4625.2 these4625.44 powers.4625.76 It4626.56 does4626.8 not4627.04 confer4627.28 upon4627.68 the4628 auditor4628.16 the4628.56 power4628.72 to4629.04 prescribe4629.28 or4630.38 strike4630.61 down4630.94 rules4631.65 of4632.05 operation,4632.3 nor4633.81 will4634.05 the4634.3 con4634.53 the4634.85 conduct4635.01 of4635.41 an4635.57 audit4635.73 impermissibly4636.14 invade4637.09 the4637.49 inner4637.65 sanctum4637.9 of4638.3 the4638.45 legislature.4638.69 I4639.9 have4640.05 found4640.3 no4640.69 authority4641.01 holding4642.05 that4642.38 the4642.61 legislation4642.77 legislature4643.9 and4645 you4645.24 enjoys4645.48 a4646.12 constitutional4646.28 right4647.24 protecting4647.88 its4648.36 folks,4648.6 records,4649.24 or4649.72 activities4649.88 against4650.52 disclosure4650.92 to4652.04 other4652.2 branches4652.52 of4653 government,4653.24 for4653.64 example,4653.88 say,4654.36 in4654.68 a4655 criminal4655.24 prosecution.4655.72 In4657.26 short,4657.49 notwithstanding4657.98 all4658.94 the4659.18 hyperbolic4659.34 rhetoric4659.98 about4660.94 dire4661.57 consequences4662.06 and4663.1 power4663.57 grabs4663.98 that4664.61 were4664.78 testified4665.02 to4665.74 in4665.98 the4666.06 hearing4666.22 on4666.53 the4666.61 petition4666.78 last4667.18 year4667.41 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and4736.42 obstructing4736.66 the4737.38 performance4737.54 of4738.18 a4738.26 core4738.42 function4738.74 of4739.61 a4739.78 constitutional4740.02 executive4741.14 branch4741.61 office4742.02 and4742.74 the4742.98 will4743.06 of4743.38 the4743.45 people4743.61 in4744.34 examining4744.66 whether4745.22 the4745.53 laws4745.61 are4745.85 faithfully4746.02 executed,4746.57 whether4748.49 public4748.9 monies4749.22 are4749.53 being4749.7 wasted4749.94 or4750.26 misdirected,4750.41 and4751.3 whether4751.53 government4751.85 is4752.34 effective4752.57 and4753.06 responsive4753.22 to4753.85 the4754.02 people.4754.18 The4755.48 irony4755.64 is4756.2 that4756.36 the4756.52 general4756.68 court4757.16 has4757.88 overreached4758.12 in4758.6 the4758.76 same4758.92 way4759.24 it4759.96 now4760.2 complains4760.52 the4761.16 state4761.32 auditor4761.64 is4762.04 doing.4762.2 The4763.4 house4763.64 and4763.8 senate4764.04 committees4764.36 on4764.84 post4765.08 audit4765.4 and4765.72 oversight4765.96 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the4922.7 audit.4922.86 While4924.38 part4924.78 2,4925.18 chapter4925.58 3,4925.98 article4926.38 24926.78 of4927.1 Massachusetts4927.34 constitution4928.14 affords4928.94 each4929.34 branch4929.58 of4929.9 the4929.98 legislature,4930.14 as4931.02 well4931.18 as4931.42 the4931.58 governor4931.74 and4932.06 the4932.22 council,4932.38 the4933.18 authority4933.34 to4933.82 require4933.98 the4934.38 opinions4934.54 of4935.02 the4935.1 justices4935.26 upon4935.9 important4936.64 questions4937.03 of4937.44 law4937.76 and4938.07 upon4938.31 solemn4938.72 occasions.4939.27 Article4940.48 34940.88 prevents4941.19 the4941.68 SJC4941.91 from4942.95 impining4943.35 on4943.91 the4943.99 constitutionality4944.23 or4945.35 the4945.6 construction4945.76 of4946.56 an4946.72 existing4946.88 statute.4947.44 Abstract4948.56 hypotheticals4949.19 that4949.99 we've4950.15 talked4950.4 about4950.72 this4950.95 morning4951.19 are4951.76 not4952 solemn4952.16 occasions.4952.64 They4953.6 do4953.76 not4954 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5131.58 SPEAKER65131.58 -5131.58 Again,5131.58 I5131.9 think5131.98 that's5132.22 a5132.46 hypothetical5132.62 senator.5133.42 I5135.13 think5135.28 it's5135.45 conceivable5135.85 that5136.56 there5136.89 would5137.45 be5137.89 questions5138.32 and5138.81 activities5138.97 that5139.6 would5139.77 be5139.93 overly5140.16 intrusive,5140.65 but5142.81 I5143.13 think5143.2 that5143.52 that5143.69 is5143.93 would5144.16 never5144.41 be5144.73 grounds5144.89 to5145.69 say5145.93 no5146.32 audit5146.65 at5146.97 all.5147.05 In5147.62 other5147.78 words,5147.94 what5148.34 I5148.5 think5148.66 the5149.22 the5149.46 auditor5149.62 is5150.18 empowered5150.98 to5151.46 do5151.62 are5151.86 the5152.02 inherent5152.26 powers5152.74 of5153.14 an5153.46 auditor.5153.7 And,5154.98
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5192.56 SPEAKER35192.56 -5192.56 I'm5192.56 sorry.5192.73 Just5192.97 to5193.13 be5193.2 clear,5193.36 you're5193.6 saying5193.85 we5194.24 should5194.4 the5194.65 legislature5194.81 should5195.36 look5195.52 to5196.01 those5196.56 are5196.73 statutory5196.97 provisions5197.52 that5198.65 we5198.81 should5198.89 look5199.05 to?5199.2
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5497.47 SPEAKER75497.47 -5497.47 I5497.47 agree.5497.71 I5498.75 agree.5498.91 I5499.23 I5499.47 do5499.55 think5499.71 that5499.95 an5500.11 informed5500.35 electorate5501.39 is5501.95 essential5502.11 for5502.91 democracy.5503.15 I5504.03 I5504.19 do5504.35 think5504.51 that5504.75 that's5504.99 15505.71 of5505.95 the5506.11 reasons5507.28 that5507.84 the5508.16 house5508.24 and5508.48 the5508.65 senate5508.72 have5509.13 really5509.76 moved5510.09 forward5510.48 on5510.97 a5511.2 robust5511.36 rules5511.93 package,5512.24 you5513.52 know,5513.69 so5513.93 that5514.09 our5514.4 work5514.89 is5515.36 more5515.6 visible5515.93 to5516.89 the5516.97 voters.5517.13 Thank5519.27 you5519.43 so5519.67 much.5520.47
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8762.28 SPEAKER108762.28 -8762.28 Thank8762.28 you.8762.6 Good8763.32 morning,8763.56 chair,8764.35 members8764.52 of8764.76 the8764.92 committee,8765.16 and8765.48 thank8765.64 you8765.8 for8766.03 having8766.19 me8766.44 to8766.6 here8767 today.8767.24 As8767.88 you've8768.19 heard,8768.35 I'm8768.68 Mary8768.92 Richardson.8769.32 I've8770.27 been8770.52 invited8770.83 here8771.24 to8771.48 speak8771.64 to8771.88 you8772.03 about8772.27 auditor8772.6 independence,8773.24 specifically8774.92 with8775.64 regard8775.88 to8776.27 the8776.44 state8776.6 auditor's8776.83 plan8777.4 to8777.72 conduct8777.88 performance8778.48 audits8778.88 of8779.28 the8779.44 general8779.6 court8779.92 of8780.24 Massachusetts.8780.48 I'll8782.08 provide8782.24 my8782.64 comments8782.88 in8783.52 the8783.76 context8784 of8784.4 the8784.56 government8784.72 auditing8785.2 standards8785.6 based8786.16 on8786.4 my8786.56 308786.72 plus8787.04 years8787.36 of8787.6 experience8787.84 conducting8788.8 government8789.36 performance8789.84 audits8790.4 and8791.1 my8791.27 58791.43 years8791.67 serving8792.23 on8792.86 the8793.1 Comptroller8793.35 General's8793.91 Government8794.47 Auditing8794.94 as8795.58 Standards8795.75 Advisory8796.39 Council.8797.1 In8798.23 preparing8798.47 for8798.86 today,8799.02 I8799.43 reviewed8799.58 copies8799.99 of8800.39 correspondence8800.63 between8801.67 the8802.07 state8802.31 auditor8802.63 and8803.1 the8803.27 senate8803.5 subcommittee,8803.99 the8805.15 state8805.31 auditor's8805.71 annual8806.19 independent8806.75 certification8807.47 forms8808.43 for8808.75 02/20238809.07 through8810.67 2025,8810.91 notes8812.51 summarizing8812.91 her8813.63 conversation8813.87 with8814.51 the8814.83 US8815.15 Government8815.39 Accountability8816.03 Office,8817.07 also8817.55 known8817.87 as8818.19 the8818.35 GAO,8818.59 regarding8819.77 auditor8820.33 independence8820.74 and8821.77 public8822.02 comments8822.42 she8822.82 has8822.98 made8823.14 regarding8823.45 her8824.02 authority8824.25 to8824.82 audit8825.06 the8825.45 general8825.61 court.8826.09 These8826.98 documents8827.3 formed8827.85 the8828.25 basis8828.33 for8828.82 my8829.06 comments8829.22 to8829.77 you8829.94 today.8830.09 The8831.84 guiding8832 force8832.24 behind8832.72 government8833.12 audit8833.68 performance8834.16 audits8834.8 comes8835.2 from8835.44 the8835.68 generally8835.92 accepted8836.48 government8836.96 auditing8837.44 standards,8838 commonly8838.8 referred8839.28 to8839.6 as8839.68 GAGAS8839.92 or8840.4 the8840.64 yellow8840.72 book,8841.12 which8841.6 are8841.92 issued8842.08 by8842.4 the8842.56 Comptroller8842.8 General8843.44 of8843.76 the8843.92 United8844 States8844.48 and8844.88 the8845.12 GAO,8845.36 and8846.25 that8846.42 the8846.66 state8846.81 auditor8847.22 is8847.69 required8847.85 under8848.42 Massachusetts8848.73 general8849.93 laws8850.42 to8851.06 follow.8851.3 Gagas8852.33 requires8852.9 both8853.38 auditors8853.85 and8854.5 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standards8951.79 ethical8952.51 principles,8953.07 which8953.95 is8954.19 also8954.43 shown8954.75 on8955.07 18955.23 of8955.39 the8955.55 posters.8955.71 These8957.33 principles8957.65 include8958.28 both8958.69 integrity8959.17 and8959.73 objectivity,8960.05 which8961.17 includes8961.41 both8961.89 independence8962.28 of8963.09 mind8963.33 and8963.73 appearance.8963.97 The8965.41 ethical8965.65 principles8966.13 also8966.77 require8967.17 that8967.57 auditors8967.81 serve8968.36 the8968.6 public8968.77 interest8969.17 and8969.65 that8969.81 they8970.03 do8970.27 not8970.43 use8970.59 government8970.99 information8971.55 or8972.11 their8972.35 positions8972.59 for8973.55 personal8973.87 gain8974.27 in8975.07 a8975.23 manner8975.39 contrary8975.87 to8976.35 law8976.51 or8976.91 in8977.15 a8977.23 manner8977.39 that8977.71 is8977.87 detrimental8978.19 to8978.75 the8978.91 legitimate8979.07 interests8979.79 of8980.19 the8980.35 audited8980.43 entity8981.07 or8981.55 the8981.71 audit8981.87 organization.8982.35 The8984.77 independent8985.1 standard8985.74 identifies8986.38 78986.85 types8987.1 of8987.42 threats8987.58 that8987.98 can8988.14 impair8988.3 an8988.85 auditor's8989.1 or8989.74 the8989.98 audit8990.22 organization's8990.61 independence.8991.58 These8992.85 are8993.1 listed8993.26 on8993.74 18993.98 of8994.22 the8994.3 posters8994.45 in8994.94 front8995.18 of8995.42 you.8995.5 As8996.63 shown8996.79 in8997.03 the8997.19 flowchart8997.43 poster,8997.99 it8998.79 requires8999.03 auditors8999.75 to9000.31 apply9000.55 a9000.95 conceptual9001.27 framework9001.99 at9002.55 the9002.71 audit9002.95 organization,9003.43 engagement9004.71 team,9005.27 and9005.67 individual9006.07 auditor9006.87 levels9007.51 to9008.23 identify9008.39 if9009.11 any9009.27 of9009.43 those9009.59 threats9009.83 to9010.23 independence9010.39 exist.9011.27 There9012.52 are9012.65 several9012.77 steps9013.25 to9013.57 the9013.73 conceptual9013.89 framework9014.52 process9015 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all9045.67 of9045.91 them9045.99 are9046.23 considered9046.47 significant,9047.02 the9048.07 audit9048.23 or9048.63 audit9048.86 organization9049.27 must9050.31 identify9050.63 and9051.27 apply9051.5 appropriate9051.99 safeguards9052.63 to9053.35 either9053.58 eliminate9053.91 the9054.47 threat9054.55 or9055.1 reduce9055.35 it9055.75 to9055.91 an9056.07 acceptable9056.23 level.9056.94 If9057.99 appropriate9058.31 safeguards9058.87 can9059.43 be9059.67 applied,9059.83 the9060.47 auditors9060.71 must9061.27 document9061.59 the9062.07 nature9062.23 of9062.55 the9062.71 threats9062.87 identified9063.35 and9064.23 the9064.39 safeguards9064.63 applied,9065.27 and9065.91 then9066.07 may9066.31 proceed9066.55 with9067.03 the9067.19 engagement.9067.35 Finally,9068.87 if9069.35 safeguards9069.59 are9070.23 insufficient9070.47 to9071.19 eliminate9071.43 or9071.99 reduce9072.23 threats9072.75 to9073 an9073.16 acceptable9073.31 level,9073.95 the9074.59 auditors9074.83 or9075.31 audit9075.56 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auditor9226.85 identified9227.41 all9228.05 39228.29 of9228.45 these9228.61 as9228.93 independent9229.17 threats9229.81 in9230.21 her9230.37 annual9230.53 independent9231.01 certifications9231.73 based9232.93 on9233.17 her9233.33 service9233.49 in9233.89 the9234.05 state9234.21 legislature9234.69 prior9235.33 to9235.65 being9235.89 elected9236.29 as9237.01 state9237.25 auditor.9237.65 I9239.5 also9239.66 identified9240.22 them,9240.61 but9241.02 that9241.33 my9241.5 identification9241.82 of9242.53 them9242.69 was9243.02 based9243.18 on9243.5 her9243.66 statements9243.9 acknowledging9244.53 that9245.1 the9245.33 legislative9245.58 audits9246.22 would9246.85 be9247.02 based9247.18 on9247.5 her9247.66 knowing9247.9 where9248.22 to9248.45 look9248.61 because9248.94 she9249.25 worked9249.42 in9249.74 the9249.98 state9250.06 legislature.9250.53 The9251.92 state9252.16 auditor9252.64 ident9253.12 auditor9253.68 identified9254.16 steps9254.88 she9255.2 has9255.44 taken9255.6 to9255.92 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sufficiently9286.84 mitigate9287.56 any9288.2 of9288.44 these9288.6 39288.76 independence9289.16 impairments.9290.04 First,9291.64 speaking9292.03 with9292.35 the9292.6 GAO9292.76 is9293.32 not9293.56 a9293.8 safeguard.9293.95 It's9294.6 simply9294.83 a9295.24 conversation9295.48 about9296.27 the9296.6 threats.9296.76 Although9297.72 she9298.11 said9298.27 the9298.52 GAO9298.68 staff9299.24 told9299.56 her9299.72 she9299.95 had9300.11 assessed9300.27 everything9300.76 in9301.24 the9301.4 spirit9301.56 of9301.95 the9302.11 GAGA9302.27 standards,9302.68 the9303.49 state9303.73 auditor9303.97 also9304.53 acknowledged9305.01 that9305.49 GAO9305.81 staff9306.29 said9306.61 they9306.77 could9306.93 not9307.09 approve9307.33 or9307.81 disapprove9308.05 any9308.61 safeguards.9308.93 Second,9310.45 the9310.93 other9311.09 steps9311.41 are9312.29 insufficient9312.53 because9313.25 the9313.65 state9313.81 continued9315.33 to9315.81 make9315.97 statements9316.21 that9316.69 her9316.93
9317.17 SPEAKER19317.17 -9317.17 previous9317.17 knowledge9317.19 of9317.2 how9317.22 the9317.24 legislature9317.26
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9325.38 to9325.38 lack9325.85 independence9326.33 of9327.69 mind9328.25 because9328.49 she9328.73 still9328.85 has9328.98 self9329.77 interest,9330.01 bias,9330.98 and9331.38 familiarity9331.53 threats.9332.57 Third,9333.89 based9334.45 on9334.77 the9334.93 public9335.09 comment9335.41 she9335.73 has9335.97 made9336.13 about9336.45 why9336.69 the9336.93 audits9337.17 are9337.49 necessary,9337.73 it9338.69 is9338.85 unlikely9339.09 that9339.65 any9339.89 of9340.13 the9340.21 steps9340.37 she9340.69 is9340.85 taking9341.01 would9341.33 cause9341.57 a9341.97 reasonable9342.21 and9342.93 informed9343.17 third9343.73 party9343.89 to9344.61 conclude9344.77 that9345.17 the9345.33 state9345.49 auditor's9345.89 integrity,9346.45 objectivity,9347.48 objectivity,9348.44 or9349.48 professional9349.72 skepticism9350.35 have9351.4 not9351.56 been9351.72 compromised,9352.11 indicating9353.08 that9353.56 there9353.8 is9353.95 a9354.11 lack9354.27 of9354.52 independence9354.83 in9355.64 appearance.9355.8 Although9357.16 the9357.48 state9357.72 auditor9358.03 said9358.6 that9358.83 she9359.08 herself9359.32
9368.17 remains9368.17 involved9368.81 in9369.05 developing9369.29 the9369.61 audit9369.93 topics9370.01 and9371.21 also9371.61 reviews9372.01 and9372.41 signs9372.81 the9373.45 final9373.51 report.9373.58
9373.64 SPEAKER19373.64 -9373.64 This9373.64 makes9373.71 her9373.77
9373.78 SPEAKER109373.78 -9373.78 part9373.78 of9373.78 the9373.79 engagement9373.8 team9373.8 even9373.81 if9373.81 she9373.82 does9373.83 not9373.83 have9373.84 the9373.84 final9373.85 report.9374.41 This9375.35 makes9375.59 her9375.83 part9376.15 of9376.47 the9376.63 engagement9376.86 team9377.51 even9378.15 if9378.39 she9378.55 does9378.78 not9379.02 actually9379.35 conduct9379.83 any9380.63 of9380.94 the9381.1 other9381.35 audit9381.67 work9381.99 and9382.7 also9383.02 makes9383.35 her9383.59 subject9383.75 to9384.15 the9384.31 GAGAS9384.47 requirements9384.94 for9385.83 eliminating9385.99 or9386.7 mitigating9386.86 threats9387.43 to9387.83 her9387.99 independence9388.23 as9389.32 the9389.56 government9390.36 auditing9390.84 standards9391.32 make9391.88 no9392.2 distinction9392.68 between9393.48 the9393.88 core9394.12 engagement9394.52 team9395.16 and9395.64 the9395.88 engagement9396.12 team9396.68 as9397.08 a9397.24 whole.9397.4 All9398.68 39398.92 of9399.16 these9399.32 threats9399.56 can9399.96 be9400.2 both9400.52 individually9401.24 and9401.96 in9402.2 the9402.44 aggregate9402.68 viewed9403.56 as9404.04 impairments9404.28 to9405.05 independence9405.44 of9406 mind,9406.25 and9406.89 all9407.13 39407.36 can9407.68 also9407.92 be9408.25 individually9408.56 and9409.28 collectively9409.52 viewed9410.25 as9410.65 impairments9410.97 to9411.6 independence9411.84 in9412.73 appearance.9412.97 It9414.33 would9414.41 be9414.56 difficult9414.81 for9415.28 me,9415.44 based9415.76 on9416 my9416.17 experience9416.41 and9417.05 knowing9417.28 these9417.6 facts,9417.84 to9418.52 conclude9418.84 that9419.16 any9419.4 of9419.64 these9419.72 39420.04 impairments9420.36 has9421 been9421.16 appropriately9421.48 mitigated9422.2 to9422.76 an9422.92 acceptable9423.16 level.9423.8 Further,9424.76 with9425.16 all9425.4 39425.56 of9425.88 them9425.96 present,9426.2 I9426.6 would9426.84 find9427.08 it9427.32 difficult,9427.56 if9428.28 not9428.6 impossible,9428.76 to9429.8 mitigate9429.96 them9430.44 to9430.68 an9430.92 acceptable9431.08 level9431.72 since9432.12 the9432.44 state9432.6 auditor9432.92 herself9433.48 identified9434.5 the9434.98 audit9435.14 topics9435.45 based9435.85 on9436.17 her9436.33 experience9436.66 working9437.22 in9437.53 the9437.69 state9437.93 legislature.9438.25 So9439.93 while9440.17 the9440.42 voters9440.58 have9440.98 provided9441.22 the9441.61 state9441.85 auditor9442.09 with9442.58 the9442.73 statutory9442.98 authority9443.61 to9444.09 conduct9444.25 audits9444.66 at9444.98 the9445.14 general9445.3 court,9445.69 she9446.25 also9446.5 has9446.81 a9447.14 requirement9447.22 to9448.1 conduct9448.26 such9448.66 audits9448.98 in9449.38 compliance9449.62 with9450.1 the9450.34 government9450.5 auditing9450.98 standards,9451.62 and9452.42 she9452.66 has9452.82 several9452.98 impairments9453.38 to9454.02 her9454.66 independence9455.06 that9455.7 limit9455.94 her9456.34 ability9456.58 to9457.14 meet9457.3 that9457.62 statutory9458.02 requirement.9458.9 This9460.25 concludes9460.5 my9461.06 comments,9461.22 and9461.61 I9461.85 will9461.93 now9462.25 take9462.58 any9462.9 questions9463.22 that9463.69 you9463.93 may9464.09 have9464.25 of9464.58 me.9464.65
9466.81 SPEAKER19466.81 -9466.81 Thank9466.81 you9467.06 very9467.61 much.9468.01 Again,9469.77 that9470.17 was9470.25 a9470.73 a9471.22 very9471.3 thorough9471.61 Questions?9473.71 Questions?9475.47 Senator9476.67 Brownsberger.9477.23
9479.87 SPEAKER39479.87 -9479.87 Thank9479.87 you,9480.11 Madam9480.35 Chair.9480.67 Thank9481.47 you9481.71 so9481.87 much9482.03 for9482.11 your9482.27 testimony.9482.35 So9483.39 just9484.27 to9484.51 kind9484.67 of9484.91 make9485.39 sure9485.63 I9485.78 understand9486.69 a9487.58 few9488.48 things,9489.39 19489.7 of9489.86 the9490.1 there's9490.98 a9491.31 question9491.39 of9491.7 independence,9493.86
9496.42 and9496.42 19497.31 of9497.47 the9497.63 arguments9497.78 that9498.34 the9499.7 auditors9499.94 made9500.5 is9501.14 that9501.38 she's9501.7 independently9502.02 elected.9502.82 And9504.42 what9505.54 I9505.78 understood9505.94 from9506.42 your9506.66 testimony9506.9 is9507.7 that,9507.94 yes,9508.98 that9509.86 cures9510.26 the9511.22 structural9511.62 potential9512.82 source9513.38 of9513.7 impairment,9513.94 but9515.19 it9515.35 in9515.48 no9515.6 way9515.83 cures9516.16 the9517.11 other9517.35 in9518.8 sources9519.03 of9519.35 impairment,9519.6 self9520.24 interest,9520.56 bias,9521.11 and9521.52 familiarity.9521.75 Is9523.19 that9523.44 correct?9523.67
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9554.57 SPEAKER109554.57 -9554.57 Correct.9554.57 Correct.9555.88 The9556.36 fact9556.52 that9556.84 she9557.08 identified9557.32 the9557.96 topics9558.2 and9559.32 that9559.72 is9559.96 19560.2 of9560.44 the9560.6 things9560.76 that9561.24 the9561.56 reasons9561.72 the9563 reason9563.24 for9563.64 those9563.88 topics9564.2 is9564.68 based9564.84 on9565.16 her9565.32 knowledge,9565.48 that's9566.04 what9566.28 directly9566.76 contributes9567.4 to9568.12 those9568.28 threats.9568.6
9572.11 SPEAKER39572.11 -9572.11 So9572.11 taking9572.51 it9572.83 as9573.08 clear9573.56 that9574.03 this9574.83 auditor9575.08 has9575.88 disqualified9576.27 herself9577 from9577.95 being9578.27 an9578.83 objective9579.08 auditor9579.72 of9580.11 the9580.27 legislature,9580.44 Just9582.75 as9583.07 a9583.39 structural9583.55 matter,9584.11 do9584.91 you9585.07 think9585.15 that9585.47 any9587.07 auditor9587.39 elected,9588.11
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9608.65 SPEAKER109608.65 -9608.65 a9608.65 different9608.73 auditor9609.3 who9610.22 did9610.54 not9610.62 come9610.86 from9611.1 the9611.26 late9611.42 legislature9611.82 with9612.46 previous9612.7 knowledge9613.18 of9613.58 how9613.74 the9613.98 legislature9614.14 worked9614.94 and9615.5 developing9615.74 topics9616.3 based9616.78 on9617.02 that,9617.18 could9617.66 a9617.9 different9618.06 auditor9618.54 audit9619.34 the9619.66 legislature9619.9 and9620.62 meet9620.86 the9621.02 independence9621.26 requirements?9622.14 And9622.81 the9622.97 answer9623.13 would9623.4 be9623.68 yes.9624.08
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9667.24 to9667.24 the9667.48 extent9667.64 to9667.96 which9668.04 bills9668.36 are9668.84 being9670.36 considered9670.76 based9671.64 on9672.04 sponsorship,9672.76 those9674.36 types9674.68 of9675.48 legislative9675.72 issues.9676.36 Does9676.76 GAGAS9677.08 give9677.5 any9677.75 guidance9677.99 to9678.47 those,9678.55 or9678.78 what9679.02 would9679.18 be9679.34 the9679.5 appropriate9679.67 scope9680.31 of9680.63 legislative9680.86 audit9681.42 under9681.83 GAGAS?9682.15
9684.47 SPEAKER109684.47 -9684.47 So9684.47 the9685.02 standards9685.91 do9686.78 include9687.1 a9687.75 component9687.91 of9688.55 equity9688.86 as,9689.67 an9690.55 aspect9690.78 that9691.26 performance9692.52 audits9693.08 can9693.48 look9693.64 at.9693.8 It9694.36 does9694.6 not9694.84 specifically9695.24 look9696.12 at,9696.36 can9697.56 it9697.8 can9698.28 an9699.08 auditor9699.24 look9699.96 at9700.2 the9700.36 legislative9700.52 branch,9701.48 but9702.28 it9702.44 can9702.68 look9702.92 at,9703.24 for9703.64 example,9703.96 does9704.95 a9705.67 law9705.83 that9706.23 provides9706.56 for9707.27 something9707.59 to9708.08 be9708.31 provided9708.72 as9709.67 for9710.08 example,9710.23 a9710.8 service9710.95 to9711.35 be9711.51 provided,9711.75 is9712.48 that9712.72 service9713.03 being9713.51 provided9713.83 equitably?9714.64 It9716.16 can't9716.4 so9716.72 you9716.95 can9717.11 look9717.35 at9717.59 equity.9717.92 It9718.93 just9719.17 doesn't9719.41 address9719.89 it9720.29 directly9720.61 in9721.09 the9721.25 context9721.41 of9721.97 looking9722.13 at9722.45 it9722.61 in9723.09 how9723.25 a9723.49 legislature9723.73 performs.9724.61
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9733.75 an9733.75 audit9734.07 could9734.47 look9734.7 at9734.94 how9735.99 that9736.31 an9736.7 agency9736.94 was9737.34 providing9737.67 that9738.07 service9738.31 and9739.34 see9739.5 if9739.67 it9739.91 was9739.99 being9740.23 done9740.39 equitably.9740.7 That's9742.15 what9742.39 Gogas9742.7 contemplates,9744.96 but9746.32 there's9747.6 no9747.92 provision9748.08 in9748.56 GOGAS9748.8 to9749.28 say,9749.44 do9750.88 I9751.12 think9751.28 that,9751.6 you9753.76 know,9753.92 a9754.56 law9754.64 providing9754.88 for9755.28 public9755.6 transportation9756.08 is9757.11 is9757.44 equitably9757.52 written9758.16 or9758.88 that9759.03 the9759.19 legislature9759.44 engaged9760 in9760.32 an9760.48 equitable9760.64 process9761.27 for9761.75 developing9762 that9762.56 law?9762.8
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9916.56 SPEAKER79916.56 -9916.56 Thank9916.56 you,9916.8 madam9917.04 chair.9917.36 Thank9918 you9918.16 so9918.32 much,9918.48 for9919.12 the9919.28 information9919.44 you've9919.92 provided.9920.16 In9921.04 in9921.88 talking9922.11 with9922.35 us,9922.59 you9922.92 talked9923.24 about9923.48 an9923.72 engagement9923.95 team9925.08 and9925.4 a9925.56 core9925.88 engagement9926.27 team.9926.92 So9927.64 in9927.95 our9928.11 conversations,9928.27 with9929.72 the9929.88 auditor,9930.03 we've9930.43 we've9931.31 talked9931.72 about,9931.95 the9933.48 levels9933.64 of9934.03 supervision9934.19 between9935.08 the9935.32 folks9935.4 who9935.72 would9935.88 be9936.04 doing9936.76 the9937.16 work9937.32 of9938.2 the9938.44 audit9938.6 and9939.16 then9939.4 who9940.04 supervises9940.44 these9941.48 folks.9941.72 And9942.12 when9942.76 you9942.92 were9943.08 talking9943.32 with9943.56 us,9943.8 you9944.04 you9944.44 didn't9945.56 see9945.96 much9946.28 space9946.6 between,9947.8 a9949.08 supervision9949.32 of9949.88 the9950.03 work9950.19 and9950.52 the9950.68 work9950.83 itself.9951.16 Could9952.44 you9952.68 go9952.75 into9953 a9953.24 little9953.32 bit9953.56 more9953.72 detail9954.03 there?9954.35
9956.52 SPEAKER109956.52 -9956.52 Sure.9956.52 I9956.92 actually,9957.32 I9957.72 don't9957.88 see9958.19 any9958.44 space9958.75 between9959.32 those.9959.88 The9960.75 anyone9961.16 who9961.8 is9962.03 involved9962.19 in9962.68 planning,9963.08 directing,9963.88 conducting,9964.76 reviewing9966.68 the9967.72 the9968.12 any9969.32 component9969.56 of9970.2 the9970.44 audit9970.6 is9971.32 part9971.48 of9971.8 the9971.96 engagement9972.12 team.9972.76 The9973.48 yellow9973.64 book9974.04 does9974.36 not9974.68 make9974.92 any9975.32 distinction9975.64 between9976.36 a9977.19 core9977.43 engagement9977.99 team9978.63 or9979.27 the9979.91 engagement9980.15 team9980.7 as9981.02 a9981.19 whole.9981.35 It9981.83 does9982.07 identify9982.47 different9983.43 levels9983.91 of9984.55 people9984.7 who9985.19 participate9985.43 in9986.07 the9986.31 audit,9986.47 but9987.35 they9987.58 are9987.75 all9988.07 subject9989.02 to9989.67 participating9990.07 to9992.45 to9993.01 being9993.09 they9993.49 are9993.65 all9993.81 subject9993.97 to9994.29 the9994.45 independent9995.09 standard.9995.81 They9996.37 must9996.61 all9996.93 be9997.17 independent9997.41 of9998.69 the9999.09 entity9999.33 they10000.05 are10000.29 auditing10000.61 by10001.57 not10001.81 having10002.05 any10002.37 of10002.69 these10002.77 threats10003.09 present,10003.58 as10005.91 part10006.06 as10006.47 part10006.63 of10006.86 their10007.1 either10007.58 individually10007.98 as10008.63 the10008.94 engagement10009.1 team10009.67 as10009.98 a10010.23 whole.10010.31 The10010.78 audit10011.1 organization10011.42 refers10012.55 to10013.02 the10013.42 audit10013.75 organization10014.31 as10015.34 a10015.42 whole,10015.58 meaning10015.83 everyone10016.23 who's10016.63 involved10016.94 in10017.75 an10017.98 audit.10018.15 So10018.91 the10019.23 only10019.31 way10019.63 I10020.03 see10020.35 that10020.59 she10020.91 could10021.15 be10022.03 independent10022.59 is10023.63 to10023.87 have10024.03 had10024.27 absolutely10024.75 no10025.55 involvement10025.87 in10026.43 the10026.59 audit.10026.75 No10027.23 involvement10027.47 in,10028.03 determining10029.55 the10030.11 audit10030.27 topics,10030.59 no10031.22 involvement10031.45 in10032.01 reviewing10032.25 the10032.65 audit,10032.9 and10033.3 not10033.53 signing10033.93 the10034.25 and10034.5 get10034.73 the10035.06 audit10035.38 report.10035.77
10037.22 SPEAKER710037.22 -10037.22 Thank10037.22 you10037.45 very10037.61 much.10037.85
10041.22 SPEAKER410041.22 -10041.22 May10041.22 I10041.3 have10041.38 after10043.45 you.10043.69
10044.09 SPEAKER510044.09 -10044.09 No.10044.09 No.10044.33 No.10044.5
10044.65 SPEAKER110044.65 -10044.65 It's10044.65 it.10044.73 I'm10045.06 I'm10045.3 gonna10045.45 wrap10045.89 it10046.05 up.10046.13
10046.77 SPEAKER310046.77 -10046.77 Oh,10046.77 okay.10047.01 Oh,10047.41 no.10047.49 Real10047.81 quick.10048.05 But10048.45 so10048.61 it's10048.85 too10049.01 late10049.17 for10049.41 that10049.49 now10049.73 in10050.37 this10050.53 audit?10050.69
10051.89 SPEAKER1010051.89 -10051.89 Yes.10051.89
10052.93 SPEAKER310052.93 -10052.93 Yeah.10052.93 I10053.33 mean,10053.49 to10053.73 to10053.89 sort10054.13 of10054.29 back10054.45 out10054.69 because10054.85 it's10055.17 it's10055.33 all10055.41 it's10055.57 all10055.73 been10055.89 so10056.05 defined.10056.29 Right?10056.77 Yes.10057.33
10057.57 SPEAKER110057.57 -10057.57 Thank10057.57 you.10057.73 Senator10059.81 Feeney.10060.45
10061.17 SPEAKER410061.17 -10061.17 Thank10061.17 you,10061.42 madam10061.58 chair.10061.9 And10062.85 thank10063.81 you,10063.98 miss10064.61 Richardson,10064.85 for10065.25 your10065.42 testimony.10065.66 Very10066.14 enlightening10066.38 as10066.77 well.10066.93 Appreciate10067.17 taking10067.66 the10067.98 time.10068.14 A10069.33 quick10069.42 question10069.66 on10070.06 scope,10070.38 and10071.78 best10072.02 practices.10072.26 You10072.74 had10072.9 mentioned10072.98 it10073.3 earlier10073.38 in10073.7 your10073.86 your10074.02 remarks.10074.34 Is10075.94 it10076.18 common10076.82 practice10077.3 for10077.86 an10079.38 auditor,10079.62 in10081.38 their10081.62 engagement10082.02 meeting10082.58 or10082.9 kind10083.14 of10083.3 their10083.38 opening,10083.62 you10084.34 know,10084.5 engagement10084.66 conference10085.3 with10085.86 an10086.1 an10086.26 auditee10086.5 to10087.83 have10088.16 an10088.32 open10088.56 scope,10089.27 or10089.68 is10089.83 it10090 usually10090.08 more10090.48 specific?10090.8 How10092.64 do10092.8 you10092.95 kinda10094.16 define10094.56 those10094.95 standards?10095.27 Understanding10096.64 fully10097.27 and10097.6 we10097.76 met10097.92 with10098.08 the10098.24 office10098.32 of10098.56 the10098.72 state10098.88 auditor10099.11 where10099.52 they10099.68 said,10099.83 you10100.24 know,10100.4 senator,10100.72 we10101.03 may10101.19 have10101.35 an10101.52 issue10101.68 where10102 as10102.69 we're10102.93 looking10103.01 at10103.33 110103.49 thing10103.73 in10103.97 the10104.13 explained10104.37 scope,10104.85 all10105.17 of10105.41 a10105.49 sudden,10105.57 it10105.97 starts10106.21 to10106.53 raise10106.69 questions10106.93 about10107.41 something10107.65 related10108.05 to10108.45 that,10108.53 and10108.93 we10109.17 wanna10109.33 be10109.57 able10109.73 to10109.97 have10110.05 the10110.13 ability10110.29 to10110.69 kinda10110.85 go10111.09 down10111.25 that10111.49 road.10111.65 Fully10112.29 understand10112.61 that,10113.09 and10113.17 that's10113.41 how10113.81 audit10113.97 should10114.37 be10114.53 conducted.10114.61 Where10115.65 where10116.05 where10116.75 I'm10116.92 struggling10117.16 and10117.64 I10117.88 think10118.03 we're10118.27 trying10118.51 to10118.67 figure10118.75 out10119.08 is10119.23 if10119.88 it's10120.11 just10120.27 an10120.59 open10120.83 ended10121.16 scope10121.48 saying,10121.95 well,10122.27 we're10122.51 not10122.67 gonna10122.83 rule10123.16 anything10123.48 out,10123.88 and10124.83 this10125.23 is10125.48 what10125.56 we're10125.8 gonna10125.95 start10126.19 with.10126.43 However,10126.75 we10127.08 could10127.23 go10127.48 down,10127.64 you10128.27 know,10128.43 multiple10128.67 roads,10129.16 after10130.19 this.10130.51 Is10131.65 that10131.89 best10132.05 practice?10132.29 Have10132.77 we10133.01 seen10133.25 that?10133.49 What10133.81 is10133.97 the10134.21 what10134.37 is10134.61 the10134.69 usual10134.77 course10135.17 of10135.41 action10135.57 when10135.81 you're10135.97 defining10136.21 scope10136.61 with10136.93 an10137.09 oddity?10137.25
10139.17 SPEAKER1010139.17 -10139.17 So10139.17 the10139.57 the10139.97 audit10140.77 standards10141.09 require10141.81 you10142.61 to10142.85 do10143.01 a10143.25 planning10143.41 process.10143.97 And10144.81 as10145.05 a10145.2 result10145.36 of10145.76 that10145.92 planning10146.24 process,10146.73 you10147.52 identify10147.84 your10148.65 audit10148.97 scope10149.44 and10149.76 objectives.10150 So10151.6 the10151.84 objective10152.08 is10152.81 the10153.05 specific10153.84 issue10154.81 that10155.2 you're10155.44 looking10155.6 at,10155.92 and10156.24 the10156.48 scope10156.65 is10156.97 kind10157.2 of10157.36 the10157.52 boundaries10157.97 of10158.37 it.10158.53 For10159.01 example,10159.25 a10159.65 time10159.89 frame10160.21 or10160.53 a10160.93 geographical10161.25 location,10162.05 if10162.53 there's10162.69 multiple10162.93 locations10163.49 for10164.29 like10164.77 a10165.01 transportation10165.25 agency,10166.05 it's10166.69 kind10166.85 of10167.01 all10167.17 over10167.33 the10167.57 state.10167.73 Are10168.21 they10168.37 gonna10168.53 look10168.85 at10169.01 certain,10169.49 locations10170.45 for10171.17 that?10171.33 But10171.98 and10172.14 but10172.3 it's10172.77 really10173.02 the10173.33 boundaries10173.58 of10174.22 that10174.38 objective.10174.69 And10175.9 the10176.22 objective10176.53 is10177.1 usually10177.33 pretty10177.82 specific.10178.38 It's10179.18 not10179.42 usually10179.66 just,10180.14 oh,10180.45 we're10180.69 gonna10181.02 leave10181.58 it10181.9 open10182.14 to10182.45 whatever10182.61 we10183.1 wanna10183.26 look10183.66 at.10183.82 It's,10184.06 like10184.85 the10185.1 legislative10185.33 branch10185.98 as10186.38 a10186.53 whole.10186.61 It's10187.12 you10187.44 usually10187.76 a10188.08 specific10188.32 aspect10188.88 of10189.28 it.10189.44 There10190.08 is10190.24 a10190.64 specific10190.96 requirement10191.68 in10192.56 the,10192.88 standards10193.68 for10194.48 the10194.8 auditors10195.04 to10195.6 communicate10195.84 an10196.4 overview10196.64 of10197.12 the10197.2 objectives,10197.44 scope,10198.24 and10198.64 methodology,10198.88 the10200.08 timing10200.24 of10200.64 the10200.8 audit,10200.96 and10201.57 the10201.65 planned10201.89 reporting10202.36 on10203 it.10203.25 And10203.89 then10204.05 it10204.2 says,10204.44 unless10204.85 doing10205.41 so10205.65 could10205.89 significantly10206.2 impair10206.93 the10207.33 auditors'10207.49 ability10208.05 to10208.52 obtain10208.77 sufficient10209.73 appropriate10210.28 evidence10210.85 to10211.65 address10211.89 the10212.2 audit10212.44 objectives.10212.77 But10213.79 they10214.03 are10214.19 supposed10214.59 to10214.91 communicate10215.23 that10215.71 with10216.03 the10216.27 management10216.35 of10216.99 the10217.15 audit10217.39 entity,10217.87 those10219.15 charged10219.47 with10219.79 governance10220.11 and10221.07 the,10221.31 any10221.95 individuals10222.43 contracting10223.15 for10223.71 requesting10224.11 the10224.59 audit10224.83 services.10225.23 And10226.3 so,10226.53 and10227.25 the10227.57 cognizant10227.81 legislative10228.53 committee.10229.33 So,10230.3 they10231.25 are10231.5 required10231.81 to10232.38 do10232.53 that10232.69 and10233.09 then10233.33 if10233.57 they10233.81 change10234.06 along10234.45 the10234.77 way,10234.93 they10235.33 should10235.5 be10235.81 updating10236.14 that10236.69 communication10236.93 to10237.65 say,10237.9 now10238.38 we're10238.53 also10238.77 going10239.09 to10239.42 look10239.5 at10239.73 this10239.9 and10240.22 why10240.45 they're10240.69 looking10241.01 at10241.33 that,10241.57 in10242.48 addition10242.72 to10242.96 what10243.2 the10243.36 original10243.6 objectives10244.08 were.10244.64 So10244.96 it10245.2 shouldn't10245.36 just10245.68 be10245.92 this10246.16 broad10246.4 open.10246.72 We're10247.36 leaving10247.52 it10247.76 open10247.92 to10248.16 look10248.32 at10248.4 whatever10248.64 we10248.96 decide10249.12 we10249.52 wanna10249.68 look10250 at10250.16 as10250.32 we10250.56 go.10250.72 It10251.04 really10251.28 should10251.6 be10251.84 based10252.08 on10252.48 the10252.56 result10252.72 of10253.36 the10253.52 planning10253.68 process,10254.08 and10254.48 there's10254.64 a10254.96 lot10255.04 of10255.28 steps10255.44 identified10255.84 in10256.76 the10256.92 standards10257.08 as10257.56 to10257.73 what10257.89 that10258.2 planning10258.52 process10259 should10259.56 be10259.73 looking10259.97 at.10260.28 And10261.4 so10261.65 they10262.05 really10262.36 should10262.76 be10263 starting10263.81 off10264.2 fairly10264.68 broad,10265.17 but10265.4 narrowing10265.73 it10266.13 and10266.36 narrowing10266.68 it10267 to10267.24 specific10267.48 objectives10268.05 and10268.52 telling10268.68 you10269 what10269.17 those10269.4 objectives10269.65 are.10270.28
10271.35 SPEAKER410271.35 -10271.35 Thank10271.35 you.10271.59 And10271.83 understanding10272.07 this,10272.55 I10272.79 I10272.95 know10273.03 you've10273.19 done10273.43 some10273.59 research10273.67 on10274.15 on10274.31 the10274.47 issue10274.63 that10274.87 we're10275.03 facing10275.19 with10275.51 this10275.67 particular10275.83 audit.10276.23 Do10277.03 you10277.19 believe10277.35 that10277.59 that's10277.83 been10278.23 done?10278.47
10280.07 SPEAKER1010280.07 -10280.07 No.10280.07 This10280.31 audit10280.63 seems10281.03 very10281.35 broad,10281.75 open10282.07 ended10282.39 as10282.95 to10283.19 what10283.43 they,10283.59 what10284.23 she10284.39 wants10284.63 to10284.95 look10285.03 at.10285.27
10288.81 SPEAKER110288.81 -10288.81 Thank10288.81 you.10289.06 Thank10291.3 you,10291.45 miss10291.77 Richardson.10292.01 We10292.98 truly10293.22 appreciate10293.77 your,10294.25 testimony10295.22 and10295.85 the10296.09 information10296.25 that10296.73 you've10296.9 provided10297.22 us.10297.69 It's10298.57 been10298.81 very10299.06 helpful.10299.3
10300.76 SPEAKER610300.76 -10300.76 Thank10300.76 you.10300.92
10304.12 SPEAKER110304.12 -10304.12 The10304.12 last10304.36 speaker10305.16 we10305.64 have10305.88 is,10306.36 Diane10306.76 Diane10308.12 Ray10308.84 who,10309.24 is10310.36 also10310.52 virtual.10310.92 Diane10312.04 Ray10312.52 served10312.68 as10313.08 the10313.16 Colorado10313.57 state10314.13 auditor10314.44 for10314.92 1010315.17 years.10315.49 In10316.44 that10316.52 role,10316.69 she10317 recognized10317.33 she10317.97 was10318.13 recognized10318.36 for10318.92 her10319.08 innovative10319.25 leadership10319.81 style.10320.28 The10321.17 Colorado10321.41 office10322.05 of10322.36 state10322.69 auditor10323 received10323.73 the10324.13 highest10324.36 possible10324.77 rating10325.33 from10325.73 the10325.89 National10326.05 State10326.52 Auditors10326.92 Association10327.49 for10328.52 every10328.98 external10329.3 review10329.7 conducted10330.26 while10331.3 miss10331.54 Ray10331.86 served10332.1 as10332.58 state10332.82 auditor.10333.14 Prior10334.18 to10334.5 becoming10334.66 state10335.14 auditor,10335.46 miss10335.86 Ray10336.1 served10336.34 as10336.66 the10337.3 OSA's10337.54 deputy10338.18 state10338.82 auditor10339.06 primarily10339.7 responsible10340.42 for10341.22 the10341.38 financial10341.54 audit10342.18 of10342.58 the10342.67 state10342.9 of10343.15 Colorado.10343.39 She10344.42 began10344.67 began10345.47 her10345.63 career10345.86 at10346.26 the10346.42 office10346.58 of10346.98 the10347.15 state10347.23 auditor10347.47 in10347.94 02/200210348.18 as10349.39 director10349.7 of10350.18 the10350.26 local10350.42 government10350.82 audit10351.47 division.10351.86 Prior10353.39 to10353.47 joining10353.63 the10354.06 OSA,10354.5 she10354.98 worked10355.15 in10355.47 local10355.63 government10355.94 for10356.42 1510356.58 years,10356.98 including10357.84 as10357.96 director10358.08 of10358.56 finance10358.8 administration10359.2 for10360.48 the10360.64 city10360.8 of10361.12 Lewisville,10361.28 Colorado.10362.48 She's10363.44 a10363.68 licensed10363.84 CPA10364.32 in10364.88 Colorado10365.2 and10365.68 Arizona.10366.08 In10367.28 02/2015,10367.52 miss10368.56 Ray10368.8 was10369.04 honored10369.28 as10369.68 Colorado's10370.49 top10370.73 public10370.89 administrator10371.44 by10372.17 the10372.33 University10372.49 of10373.05 Colorado10373.28 Denver10373.92 School10374.33 of10374.57 Public10374.81 Affairs10375.13 and10376.17 won10376.41 the10376.65 National10376.81 State10377.2 Auditor's10377.6 Association's10378.17 Excellence10378.97 in10379.52 Accountability10379.77 Award10381.05 in10381.44 02/2014.10381.6 She10383.42 also10383.58 was10383.9 chosen10384.14 as10384.46 110384.7 of10385.02 the10385.1 3,10385.18 quote,10385.58 women10385.9 to10386.22 watch,10386.46 end10386.94 quote,10387.1 in10387.42 the10387.66 experienced10387.98 leader10388.86 category10389.34 in10390.22 201210390.54 by10391.5 the10391.58 Colorado10391.82 Society10392.54 of10392.94 Certified10393.18 Public10393.74 Accountants10394.06 and10395.02 the10395.26 American10395.42 Institute10395.98 of10396.46 Certified10396.62 Public10397.18 Accountants.10397.5 Since10398.56 2020,10398.8 Ms.10399.52 Ray10399.68 has10399.92 served10400 as10400.32 a10400.56 board10400.64 member10400.88 of10401.52 the10401.68 Governmental10401.92 Accounting10402.56 Standards10403.11 Board,10403.6 also10404.32 known10404.8 as10405.03 GASB.10405.35 Welcome,10406.24 Auditor10406.95 Ray,10407.52 and10407.92 thank10408.16 you10408.32 for10408.48 joining10408.72 us.10409.11
10410.53 SPEAKER810410.53 -10410.53 Thank10410.53 you,10410.69 madam10410.93 chair.10411.41 My10412.93 comments10413.33 are10413.81 fairly10413.97 brief,10414.45 and10414.69 they're10414.93 all10415.09 based10415.33 on10415.81 my10415.97 experience,10416.37 so10417.09 that's10417.41 what10417.73 I10417.97 bring10418.13 to10418.37 the10418.53 table.10418.69 Thank10419.65 you10419.89 for10420.05 the10420.21 opportunity10420.45 to10421.17 speak10421.25 with10421.57 you10421.73 today10421.97 and10422.29 represent10422.53 the10423.01 state10423.17 auditor10423.49 community.10424.05 First,10425.36 I10425.69 would10425.77 like10426 to10426.17 provide10426.33 you10426.73 background10427.05 on10427.52 the10427.6 structure10427.77 and10428.17 oversight10428.41 of10428.81 the10428.89 Colorado10429.13 State10429.69 Auditor's10430 office.10430.49 The10431.6 auditor10431.77 is10432.25 appointed10432.49 by10433.05 the10433.2 legislature10433.44 for10434.25 a10434.41 510434.57 year10434.81 term.10435.13 The10436.08 office10436.33 is10436.65 part10436.89 of10437.13 the10437.28 legislative10437.44 branch,10438.17 and10439.01 this10439.17 structure10439.41 provides10439.97 independence10440.53 from10441.25 all10441.49 departments10441.73 and10442.21 programs10442.45 within10443.57 the10443.89 executive10444.05 and10444.77 the10444.93 judicial10445.17 branches.10445.73 However,10446.85 with10447.25 this10447.49 structure,10447.73 the10448.29 auditor10448.45 lacks10448.85 independence10449.25 to10449.97 audit10450.13 any10450.53 legislative10450.93 departments10451.57 or10452.13 programs.10452.29 The10453.77 auditor10453.93 has10454.42 authority10454.73 to10455.3 conduct10455.53 performance10456.09 audits10456.73 in10457.06 the10457.22 executive10457.45 and10458.17 judicial10458.42 branches10459.06 and10460.01 to10460.25 conduct10460.42 the10460.9 annual10461.06 financial10461.53 audit10462.09 of10462.5 the10462.66 state10462.9 of10463.22 Colorado.10463.38 The10464.58 legislative10464.9 audit10465.53 committee10465.77 reviews10466.33 all10466.9 audits10467.14 and10467.91 releases10468.23 them10468.71 to10469.03 the10469.19 public.10469.35 The10470.31 committee10470.47 is10470.87 composed10471.19 of10471.59 410471.75 senators10472.07 and10472.63 410472.79 representatives10473.19 with10474.31 the10474.63 210474.71 major10474.95 political10475.51 parties10475.99 equally10476.55 represented.10477.19 Although10478.63 the10479.03 structure10479.27 may10479.91 be10480.07 different10480.23 from10480.63 the10480.87 structure10481.03 of10481.43 an10481.59 elected10481.67 auditor,10482.15 all10483.25 auditors10483.41 follow10484.05 the10484.44 same10484.6 yellow10484.92 book10485.25 standards10485.56 as10486.36 miss10486.68 Richardson10487 has10487.73 just10488.05 discussed10488.28 so10489.33 that10489.49 our10489.73 audits10489.97 can10490.44 represent10490.68 that10491.17 they10491.33 are10491.56 in10491.97 compliance10492.2 with10492.92 generally10493.17 accepted10493.73 government10494.28 auditing10494.76 standards,10495.33 which10496.35 I10496.51 will10496.67 refer10496.91 to10497.23 as10497.55 government10497.87 auditing10498.19 standards.10498.75 This10500.03 is10500.27 important10500.43 because10500.99 it10501.31 ensures10501.55 the10502.11 credibility10502.27 of10502.99 the10503.15 audit.10503.31 This10504.19 is10504.43 all10504.59 validated10504.99 through10505.63 our10505.87 peer10506.11 review10506.35 process10506.91 that10507.47 is10507.71 required10507.95 every10508.59 310508.91 years10509.23 to10510.25 be10510.42 able10510.58 to10510.9 conduct10511.06 audits10511.53 and10511.93 compliance10512.09 with10512.73 the10512.9 government10513.06 auditing10513.53 standards.10514.09 In10515.45 my10515.61 1010515.85 years10516.09 as10516.42 state10516.58 auditor,10516.9 we10517.38 always10517.69 received10518.01 a10518.58 pass10518.73 peer10519.22 review10519.53 rating,10519.93 which10520.9 is10521.14 the10521.38 highest,10521.61 A10522.65 peer10522.81 review10523.13 rating10523.45 of10523.93 pass10524.09 with10524.33 deficiencies10524.73 or10526.01 fail10526.41 would10527.21 question10527.53 the10527.93 auditors'10528.17 adherence10528.81 to10529.37 the10529.53 government10529.69 auditing10530.17 standards.10530.73 Keep10532.17 in10532.41 mind10532.57 that10532.89 the10533.21 310533.37 year10533.61 peer10534.01 review10534.33 period10534.89 usually10535.75 covers10536.15 audits10536.63 about10537.1 a10537.34 year10537.42 behind10537.83 the10538.23 peer10538.47 review10538.7 date10539.18 and10539.99 the10540.23 210540.31 years10540.55 prior10540.94 to10541.34 that.10541.5 Controls10543.26 are10543.75 the10543.91 cornerstone10544.06 of10544.86 auditing,10545.02 and10545.99 miss10546.31 Richardson10546.63 has10547.26 talked10547.5 a10547.83 lot10547.91 about10548.15 independence.10548.47 110549.75 of10549.99 the10550.07 controls10550.23 that10550.71 we10550.87 had10551.11 in10551.27 place10551.35 around10551.75 independence10552.15 was10553.43 the10553.59 requirement10553.83 that10554.55 all10554.79 auditors,10555.11 including10555.75 myself,10556.31 sign10557.51 independence10558.07 statements10558.87 each10559.43 year10559.75 and10560.23 to10560.47 identify10560.63 any10561.35 possible10561.59 threats10562.07 to10562.55 their10562.63 independence.10562.87 Each10564.55 threat10564.78 was10565.18 evaluated,10565.5 and10566.31 safeguards10566.55 were10567.34 documented10567.58 to10568.31 eliminate10568.47 or10569.02 reduce10569.26 the10569.75 threat10569.9 if10570.31 possible.10570.47 This10571.75 would10571.98 be10572.15 reviewed10572.39 and10572.86 updated10573.18 when10573.9 staffing10574.23 each10574.78 new10575.1 audit.10575.42 Objectivity10576.9 is10577.7 110577.86 of10578.1 the10578.18 ethical10578.42 principles10578.9 identified10579.54 in10580.18 the10580.26 government10580.5 auditing10580.98 standards10581.38 and10581.86 is10582.02 closely10582.26 related10582.9 to10583.94 independence.10584.1 Objectivity10585.62 is10586.34 defined10586.58 in10586.98 the10587.14 government10587.3 auditing10587.78 standards10588.34 as10589.06 including,10589.3 and10589.94 I10590.1 quote,10590.26 independence10591.22 of10591.93 mind10592.17 and10592.73 appearance10592.98 when10593.53 conducting10593.77 engagements,10594.42 maintaining10595.61 an10596.25 attitude10596.42 of10596.9 impartiality,10597.14 having10598.73 intellectual10599.22 honesty,10599.85 and10600.49 being10600.73 free10601.14 of10601.38 conflict10601.61 of10602.17 interest.10602.33 As10603.54 I10603.78 was10603.86 nearing10604.26 the10604.66 end10604.82 of10604.98 my10605.14 1010605.3 years10605.54 as10606.02 state10606.18 auditor,10606.5 the10607.38 senate10607.54 minority10607.94 leader10608.58 commented10608.98 to10609.46 me10609.62 about10609.86 our10610.18 balanced10610.34 approach.10610.9 And10611.86 at10612.1 that10612.18 point,10612.42 he10612.74 didn't10612.98 even10613.22 know10613.46 what10613.78 party10613.94 I10614.26 was10614.42 affiliated10614.66 with.10615.3 That10616.05 was10616.28 110616.44 confirmation10616.92 to10617.73 me10617.81 that10618.05 our10618.28 actions10618.52 and10618.92 reports10619.08 were10620.05 neutral10620.28 and10621.08 objective.10621.25 Lastly,10622.76 I10623.25 just10623.41 wanna10623.73 touch10623.97 on10624.28 findings.10624.52 Our10625.73 audits10625.97 always10626.52 clearly10626.92 identified10627.48 the10628.13 510628.36 parts10628.68 of10629 findings,10629.62 and10630.02 the10630.34 findings10630.58 the10631.14 510631.38 parts10631.62 are10632.1 condition,10632.34 criteria,10633.54 cause,10634.58 effect,10635.3 and10636.34 recommendation.10636.66 The10638.26 condition10638.5 is10639.06 the10639.3 problem10639.46 that10639.94 the10640.1 auditor10640.26 finds,10640.9 often10641.78 referred10642.18 to10642.66 as10642.9 the10643.06 finding,10643.3 and10644.2 is10644.44 discovered10644.68 through10645.25 sampling10645.56 and10646.05 testing10646.28 against10646.76 the10647.17 criteria.10647.41 The10648.84 criteria10649 are10649.81 the10650.05 foundation10650.2 of10651 what10651.17 we10651.41 measure10651.56 the10652.05 testing10652.2 and10652.6 samples10652.84 against.10653.41 These10654.52 are10654.76 objective10655.08 and10655.89 information10656.28 that10656.84 is10657.08 obtainable10657.33 by10657.97 the10658.2 auditors,10658.36 for10659.47 instance,10659.63 statutory10660.35 requirements,10661.07 rules,10662.27 written10663.23 procedures,10663.63 or10664.75 required10665.07 attributes.10665.71 The10667.15 cause10667.39 is10667.79 the10667.95 reason10668.19 for10668.59 the10668.75 finding10668.91 or10669.39 condition10669.63 and10670.19 has10670.43 a10670.67 direct10670.83 relationship10671.31 to10672.03 the10672.27 recommendation.10672.43 The10674.08 effect10674.32 is10674.89 the10675.13 impact10675.36 that10675.76 the10676 finding10676.24 has10676.65 on10676.89 not10677.13 meeting10677.44 the10677.76 criteria.10678 The10679.44 recommendation10679.68 is10680.48 the10680.81 fix10681.05 for10681.44 the10681.68 cause.10681.84 You10683.52 can10683.68 see10683.92 that10684.24 the10684.4 parts10684.56 are10684.97 all10685.13 interconnected10685.6 and10686.76 tie10687.08 the10687.24 audit10687.48 report10687.8 together10688.2 and10688.68 correspond10689.08 to10689.96 reporting10690.2 requirements10690.84 of10691.88 the10692.04 government10692.28 auditing10692.76 standards.10693.24 By10694.36 leaving10694.6 out10695 any10695.24 of10695.4 these10695.56 parts10695.88 or10696.28 not10696.6 having10696.76 solid10697.24 criteria,10697.64 the10698.85 audit10699.02 credibility10699.5 could10700.3 be10700.45 suspect.10700.69 Since10702.06 we10702.38 do10702.53 not10702.69 have10702.85 enforcement10703.17 authority10703.9 over10704.45 audit10704.69 recommendations,10705.1 my10706.53 office10706.77 developed10707.25 an10707.74 annual10707.98 report10708.38 providing10709.02 information10709.5 about10710.14 audit10710.45 recommendations10710.85 that10712.32 had10712.56 been10712.64 agreed10713.04 to10713.36 by10713.68 the10713.84 agency10714 but10714.96 had10715.28 not10715.44 been10715.68 implemented.10715.92 We10717.2 would10717.36 annually10717.68 present10718.24 this10718.64 information10718.96 to10719.6 the10719.76 joint10719.92 budget10720.24 committee10720.72 and10721.2 the10721.44 legislative10721.68 oversight10722.48 committees10722.96 for10723.92 the10724.08 specific10724.4 departments.10724.96 As10726.44 a10726.68 result,10726.84 the10727.25 legislators10727.56 had10728.2 the10728.44 information10728.6 and10729.56 could10729.73 choose10729.97 to10730.36 take10730.52 action10730.76 if10731.17 they10731.4 deemed10731.56 it10731.89 necessary.10732.05 This10733.56 concludes10733.81 my10734.36 introductory10734.6 remarks,10735.33 and10735.81 I10735.97 would10736.05 be10736.28 happy10736.36 to10736.68 answer10736.92 any10737.25 questions.10737.56
10739.81 SPEAKER110739.81 -10739.81 Thank10739.81 you.10740.13 Senator10742.37 Kompadocio.10742.85
10746.53 Just,10746.53 110747.17 follow-up.10747.49 The10748.29 peer10748.77 review10749.09 process,10749.65 who10750.13 are10750.37 the10750.53 peers?10750.69
10753.81 SPEAKER810753.81 -10753.81 We10753.81 always10754.13 had,10754.69 the10756.57 National10756.81 State10757.28 auditors10757.69 auditors10758.25 association10758.97 do10759.84 our10760.17 peer10760.41 reviews,10760.65 and10762.08 I10762.41 believe10762.57 they10762.97 do10763.2 the10763.36 110763.44 in10763.69 Massachusetts10764 also.10764.89 They10765.84 put10766.08 together10766.33 a10766.81 team10766.97 of10767.69 auditors10768.08 from10768.73 other10769.05 states,10769.44 and10770.43 so10770.67 they10770.99 are10771.31 independent10771.63 from10772.35 everything10772.67 that10773.07 we10773.31 have10773.47 done.10773.63
10775.63 SPEAKER510775.63 -10775.63 Excellent.10775.63
10778.91 SPEAKER110778.91 -10778.91 When10778.91 you10779.15 were10779.31 Colorado's10780.67 auditor,10781.39 what10782.03 did10782.27 you10782.43 do10782.59 to10782.75 maintain10783.23 your10783.39 own10783.55 and10783.86 your10784.02 office's10784.27 independence10784.91 and10785.47 objectivity?10785.7 How10787.23 did10787.47 you10787.7 try10787.86 to10788.1 avoid10788.27 accusations10788.75 of10789.39 bias?10789.7
10792.02 SPEAKER810792.02 -10792.02 That10792.02 and10792.35 that's10792.51 a10792.83 good10792.91 question.10793.15 So10794.83 to10795.7 maintain10795.86 our10796.27 independence,10796.51 it10797.91 was10797.99 really10798.23 important,10798.71 first10799.35 of10799.59 all,10799.75 these10799.99 forms10800.31 that10800.79 everybody10801.11 was10801.51 required10801.83 to10802.31 sign.10802.47 Because10803.43 that10803.83 way,10804.07 we10804.47 could10804.63 make10804.87 the10805.19 assessment10805.35 internally10805.99 before10807.03 we10807.35 ever10807.59 assigned10808.07 an10808.47 auditor10808.71 to10809.27 a10809.43 to10809.91 a10810.15 specific10810.39 audit.10811.03 If10811.97 they10812.2 had10812.28 any10812.68 biases,10812.92 any10813.65 kind10813.97 of10814.2 issues10814.84 that10815.4 would10815.65 question10816.44 that10816.84 independence,10817.08 then10818.36 they10818.6 were10818.76 not10819 assigned10819.32 to10819.81 that10819.97 audit.10820.28 And10821.25 as10821.48 far10821.65 as10821.89 the10822.13 other10822.28 the10822.68 structural10822.92 biases10823.65 and,10824.36 other10825.25 the10825.56 other10825.89 biases10826.2 that10826.84 might10827.08 exist,10827.32 We10828.58 had10828.74 a10828.9 director10829.06 that10829.62 was10829.94 our10830.18 quality10830.42 assurance10830.9 director,10831.46 and10832.66 he10833.22 would10833.54 do10834.26 those10834.5 evaluations10834.9 every10835.94 year10836.34 to10836.74 ensure10836.98 that10837.46 our10837.78 audit10838.02 as10838.5 a10838.66 whole10838.82 our10839.22 audit10839.46 office10840.1 as10841.14 a10841.38 whole10841.46 had10842.5 independence10842.81 with10843.61 whatever10843.93 we10844.33 chose10844.58 to10844.9 audit.10845.06
10849.69 SPEAKER110849.69 -10849.69 Great.10849.69 I'm10850.09 I'm10850.42 writing.10850.66
10855.14 Excellent.10855.14 Senator10857.55 Feeney.10858.03
10859.87 SPEAKER410859.87 -10859.87 Thank10859.87 you,10860.11 madam10860.35 chair,10860.67 and,10860.99 thank10861.47 you,10861.63 miss10861.79 Ray,10862.03 for10862.59 your10862.67 testimony.10862.83 I10863.07 appreciate10863.31 you10863.71 hanging10863.87 in10864.11 there.10864.27 I10864.83 know10864.99 we're10865.15 running10865.31 late10865.63 this10865.95 afternoon,10866.11 but10867.23 I10867.47 do10867.55 appreciate10867.71 your10868.11 perspective.10868.35 And10868.91 and10869.07 just10869.23 a10869.47 quick10870.19 question10870.51 for10870.91 you10871.07 on,10871.48 well,10872.43 actually,10872.67 210873.48 parted10873.72 question.10874.19 We've10876.43 we've10876.83 heard10877.15 a10877.4 lot10877.48 of10877.64 confusion10877.8 from10878.27 people10878.43 based10878.92 on,10879.15 you10879.95 know,10880.11 some10880.35 statements10880.59 that10880.92 were10881.07 made10881.23 that10881.4 it's10881.56 a10881.72 financial10881.88 audit10882.27 versus10882.51 a10882.83 performance10882.92 audit.10883.4 We10884.65 are10884.81 legislators10885.05 that10885.61 come10885.77 from10885.93 many10886.17 different10886.41 backgrounds,10886.65 but10887.05 certainly10887.21 not10887.53 professional10887.77 auditors.10888.25 You10889.61 know,10889.93 you10890.65 all10890.89 do10891.21 amazing10891.61 work,10891.93 and10892.25 and10892.49 we10892.73 don't,10892.89 we10894.41 don't10894.57 pretend10894.81 to10895.13 understand10895.29 the10895.69 intricacies10895.85 of10896.41 the10896.57 audit10896.73 process.10896.97 So10898.33 110898.57 of10898.81 the10898.89 things10899.69 that10899.94 I10900.02 wanna10900.1 clarify10900.5 based10901.14 on,10901.38 you10901.85 know,10902.02 some10902.17 of10902.25 your10902.33 statements10902.58 you10902.9 all10902.98 have10903.14 heard10903.22 earlier,10903.38 financial10904.02 audit10904.5 versus10904.74 performance10905.14 audit.10905.61 Do10906.66 you10906.98 in10907.61 your10907.85 opinion,10908.02 do10908.42 you10908.5 think10908.58 that10908.82 a10908.98 performance10909.06 audit10909.53 could10909.77 be10909.94 done10910.17 over10910.98 the10911.3 legislature?10911.45 How10912.1 do10912.25 you10912.42 define10912.66 performance,10913.14 which10913.61 is10913.85 something10913.94 I10914.25 asked10914.5 earlier?10914.66 What10916.06 are10916.22 some10916.38 of10916.54 the10916.78 the10917.1 guardrails10917.26 there10917.82 on10918.14 on,10918.38 I10919.42 was10919.58 using10919.82 the10920.06 word10920.22 scope,10920.46 but10920.7 I10920.86 heard10921.02 from10921.26 the10921.42 previous10921.5 testifier10921.9 that10922.3 maybe10922.46 its10922.7 objectives.10922.94 You10924.62 know,10924.78 what10924.94 are10925.18 some10925.26 of10925.42 those10925.5 guardrails?10925.66 Is10926.14 that10926.3 appropriate?10926.62 Have10927.18 you10927.34 ever10927.5 seen10927.82 that10928.06 happen?10928.3 And10928.98 and10929.22 in10929.3 your10929.38 opinion,10929.77 could10930.17 that10930.41 happen10930.57 where10930.98 where10931.3 the10931.53 legislature's10931.77 performance10932.57 and10933.38 kinda10933.53 inner10933.85 workings10934.09 are10934.65 audited?10934.98
10937.38 SPEAKER810937.38 -10937.38 I10937.38 I10937.69 think10937.85 that's10938.17 a10938.33 great10938.49 question.10938.81 First10939.3 of10939.61 all,10939.77 I10940.01 wanna10940.09 parse10940.41 the10940.98 financial10941.45 audit10942.09 versus10942.41 the10942.81 performance10942.98 audit.10943.69 So10944.47 I'm10944.55 gonna10944.79 put10944.87 on10945.11 my10945.35 GASB10945.51 hat,10945.99 which10946.31 I'm10946.55 a10946.79 board10946.95 member10947.27 of,10947.59 and10948.31 that's10949.11 the10949.43 financial10949.67 side.10950.31 So10950.79 any10951.35 audit10951.91 that's10952.31 done10952.63 by10953.75 a10953.99 CPA10954.23 firm,10954.79 by,10955.27 the10955.91 state10956.15 auditors10956.47 that10957.51 are10957.91 following10959.03 the10959.67 accounting10960 standards10960.72 and10961.43 the10961.59 reporting,10961.92 and,10963.11 that's10964.64 what10964.95 they're10965.19 auditing.10965.51 So10966.08 it's10966.31 very10966.72 specific10967.19 to10967.83 the10968.08 financial10968.48 data10969.27 that's10969.67 coming10970 out.10970.4 Now10971.14 on10971.38 the10971.46 performance10971.7 side,10972.26 that10973.22 can10973.46 be10973.7 that10974.1 can10974.26 encompass10975.06 almost10975.46 anything.10975.86 Now10976.66 getting10976.98 to10977.22 your10977.38 question10977.62 specifically10978.18 relating10979.06 to10979.46 the10979.62 legislature,10979.86 it's10981.22 interesting10981.54 that10982.02 you10982.18 asked10982.42 that10982.66 because10982.9 we10983.38 had10983.54 been10983.78 asked10984.1 years10984.5 ago,10984.74 and10985.06 this10985.22 was10985.46 prior10986.39 to10986.78 me10986.94 being10987.19 state10987.58 auditor,10987.91 to10989.02 audit10989.67 the10990.07 legislators,10990.63 the10992.47 legislature's,10992.86 process10994.7 for10995.35 creating10995.75 fiscal10996.23 notes.10996.7 We10997.75 did10997.99 not10998.15 have10998.47 independence10998.7 to10999.43 do10999.58 that,10999.75 but11000.54 we11000.78 did11000.94 produce11001.26 a11001.66 report11001.9 that11002.3 was11002.54 an11002.7 informational11003.1 report.11003.98 So11004.46 it11004.62 was11004.78 not11004.94 done11005.26 under11005.58 GEGA11005.9 standards,11006.38 but11007.34 it11007.58 provided11007.82 information11008.62 to11009.26 the11009.42 legislature11009.58 about11011.18 how11011.9 they're11012.22 creating11012.62 those11013.02 fiscal11013.34 notes11013.74 and11014.5 maybe11014.66 ways11015.14 of11015.45 improving11015.69 that.11016.17 So11016.9 that11017.14 was11017.53 done,11017.85 but11018.5 it11018.74 was11018.82 not11019.14 done11019.93 as11020.42 a11020.74 performance11020.98 audit.11021.69 And11022.01 that11022.25 was11022.5 really11022.74 that11023.22 was11023.3 really,11023.53 really11024.01 critical,11024.33 to11026.09 actually11026.7 do11026.86 a11027.02 performance11027.1 audit11027.98 that11028.38 would11028.62 meet11028.86 GAGA11029.18 standards.11029.66 I11030.78 think11030.86 that11031.1 would11031.26 be11031.42 really,11031.74 really11032.62 difficult11033.1 to11033.74 try11033.9 and11034.14 do.11034.3 Now11034.54 in11034.86 Colorado,11035.18 we11036.3 would11036.46 not11036.62 have11036.86 the11037.1 independence11037.34 to11037.9 do11038.06 it.11038.22 But11039.19 for11039.59 another11039.92 state,11040.48 different11040.88 structure,11041.35 I11042.64 just11042.8 think11043.03 that11043.35 there's11043.83 so11044.31 many11044.56 things11044.88 that11045.35 to11046.64 find11046.95 the11047.27 right11047.43 criteria11047.83 to11048.8 measure11049.03 any11049.67 kind11050 of11050.23 performance,11050.56 objectives,11053.03 I11054.35 think11054.43 would11054.67 be11054.83 difficult11055.23 because11055.79 a11056.19 lot11056.35 of11056.59 what11056.75 you11056.91 do11057.23 is11057.63 very11057.87 subjective.11058.19
11061.47 SPEAKER411061.47 -11061.47 It11061.47 was11061.71 interesting.11061.95 You11062.35 said,11062.59 you11063.15 were11063.31 asked11063.47 to11063.71 do11063.87 that11064.03 audit,11064.35 but11065.07 you11065.23 lacked11065.39 the11065.63 independence11065.79 to11066.35 do11066.43 so.11066.67 Why11068.48 was11068.8 that?11068.95 Was11069.19 that11069.35 a11069.83 a11070.4 structural11070.48 issue?11071.27 Was11072.07 it11072.31 was11072.56 there11072.64 other11072.88 was11073.59 there11073.75 another11073.92 threat11074.23 there?11074.56 Or11074.8
11076.72 SPEAKER811076.72 -11076.72 It11076.72 was11076.95 a11077.27 structuralist11077.35 issue11078.23 because11078.64 since11079.75 our11080.4 structure11080.72 is11081.39 that11081.55 we11081.87 are11082.03 part11082.27 of11082.51 the11082.59 legislative11082.83 branch,11083.47 you11084.27 can't11084.51 audit11084.83 yourself.11085.23 And11086.51 so11086.99 that11087.31 kept11087.71 us11087.95 from11088.35 doing11088.67 an11088.99 actual11089.15 performance11089.55 audit.11090.11 Now11090.83 we11091.15 get11091.23 we11091.55 get11091.71 around11091.95 that11092.27 on11093.17 the11093.33 financial11093.57 audit11094.13 because11094.6 we11094.92 contract11095.17 that11095.65 with11095.89 an11096.13 outside11096.28 CPA11096.92 firm.11097.41 So11098.05 we11098.28 are11098.44 not11098.6 the11098.84 ones11098.92 doing11099.33 that11099.57 audit.11099.81
11100.76 SPEAKER411100.76 -11100.76 Mister,11100.76 thank11101.08 you.11101.25 And11101.41 my11101.57 only11101.73 follow-up11102.05 to11102.44 that,11102.52 second11103.25 part11103.65 of11103.89 that,11103.97 when11105.49 we11105.65 talk11105.73 about11105.97 performance11106.2 audit11106.76 versus11107 financial11107.33 audit,11107.81 111108.81 of11108.97 the11109.05 things11109.13 that11109.37 we've11109.53 been11109.69 trying11109.93 to,11110.09 ascertain11110.89 is11111.53 is11111.69 what11111.93 it11112.17 what11112.33 are11112.49 the11112.73 objectives11112.89 of11113.37 this11113.61 proposed11113.77 audit11114.17 of11114.49 the11114.57 Massachusetts11114.65 legislature,11115.21 and11116.41 and11116.65 within11116.89 that,11117.21 what11117.45 is11117.53 the11117.77 scope?11117.93 Right?11118.25 Is11120.33 it11120.49 common11120.97 and11121.28 and11121.76 and11121.92 I11122.08 asked11122.17 the11122.4 previous11122.48 testifier11122.81 as11123.36 well.11123.44 Is11123.92 it11124.17 common11124.25 to11124.56 have11124.65 kind11124.89 of11125.05 an11125.2 open11125.36 ended11125.6 scope?11126.4 How11126.73 do11126.97 you11127.13 define11127.36 it?11127.68 How11128.65 do11128.81 you11128.97 define11129.13 the11129.52 objectives?11129.68 And11130.81 what11131.2 are11131.44 the11131.6 best11131.68 practices11131.92 from11132.48 the11132.73 auditing11132.89 community11133.36 when11134.22 they're11134.38 meeting,11134.7 to11135.5 engage11135.74 an11136.14 oddity?11136.46 Is11137.98 it,11138.22 you11138.54 know,11138.7 is11139.66 it11139.82 open11140.14 generally11140.46 or11140.86 is11141.02 it11141.26 more11141.42 specific?11141.74 And11142.14 what11142.3 are11142.46 some11142.62 of11142.78 the11142.86 things11142.94 that11143.18 we11143.34 should11143.42 be11143.66 we11144.06 should11144.3 be11144.46 considering,11144.7 when11145.74 looking11146.06 at11146.3 the11146.46 objectives11146.62 and11147.1 the11147.26 scope?11147.34
11149.59 SPEAKER811149.59 -11149.59 I11149.59 that's11150.4 a11150.72 great11150.8 question.11151.11 And,11151.67 like11153.19 miss11153.75 Richardson11154.07 talked11154.88 about,11155.11 it's11155.75 no.11156.15 Typically,11156.48 it's11157.03 not11157.27 open11157.59 ended.11157.92 You're11158.64 providing11158.95 an11159.43 engagement11159.67 letter.11160.4 You're11160.8 saying,11161.11 this11161.83 is11162.07 what11162.23 we're11162.48 going11162.64 to11162.95 be11163.03 looking11163.27 at.11163.59 And11164.44 so11164.68 and11164.92 it11165.16 needs11165.4 to11165.72 be11165.88 specific.11166.2 It's11166.92 a11167.16 specific11167.4 area,11167.96 specific11168.52 program,11169.08 how11170.12 certain11170.44 things11170.76 are11171.16 done.11171.32 And11172.44 then11173.24 the11173.72 objectives,11173.96 as11174.76 Harriet11175 mentioned,11175.56 that,11175.96 you11176.2 know,11176.36 those11176.6 would11176.84 be11177 laid11177.24 out.11177.56 Now11178.45 there11178.85 are11179.09 cases11179.33 that11179.9 when11180.14 you11180.38 go11180.53 in11180.77 and11180.93 you11181.09 conduct11181.33 a11181.73 performance11181.9 audit,11182.61 there11183.5 may11183.65 be11183.9 something11184.06 that11184.53 you11185.01 see11185.33 that11185.73 would11186.06 take11186.3 you11186.53 in11186.69 another11186.85 direction.11187.33 You11188.22 can11188.38 amend11188.61 that11189.01 scope,11189.42 and11190.14 you11190.38 can11190.53 you11190.85 can11191.09 expand11191.33 it,11191.9 but11192.89 it's11193.45 not11193.77 just11194.01 open11194.41 ended11194.73 to11195.05 start11195.21 with.11195.53 So11196.41 that's11196.97 really11197.37 important11197.69 to11198.25 get11198.41 that11198.65 information11198.89 out.11199.69 And11200.65 you11201.85 have11202.01 the11202.25 right11202.49 as11202.73 the11202.97 oddity11203.21 to11204.09 come11204.25 back11204.41 and11204.65 you11205.89 should11206.13 be11206.36 provided11206.6 a11207.25 document11207.41 that11207.97 says11208.13 these11208.52 are11208.77 all11209 of11209.25 the11209.41 the11210.05 different11210.13 documents11210.52 that11211.17 we11211.33 need.11211.49 And11212.52 when11212.92 I11213.17 talked11213.33 about11213.65 the11213.97 different11214.13 parts11214.44 of11214.77 the11214.85 finding,11215.08 make11216.05 sure11216.28 that11216.52 you11216.77 understand11217 what11217.65 they're11217.89 using11218.2 for11218.69 criteria11218.92 to11220.5 match11220.66 up,11221.14 to11221.38 do11221.62 that11221.86 performance11222.9 audit,11223.86 because11224.74 that's11225.22 where11225.7 they're11226.1 looking11226.34 at11226.74 to11227.06 find11227.22 the11227.78 problems11228.66 or11229.38 the11229.54 findings.11229.86 But11230.34 if11230.74 they11230.9 don't11231.06 have11231.3 solid11231.54 criteria,11232.1 they're11233.34 not11233.58 gonna11233.74 be11234.06 able11234.15 to11234.39 measure11234.63 that.11235.1 And11235.5 then11235.98 it11236.23 all11236.47 kinda11236.78 falls11237.18 apart.11237.5 You11237.9 wanna11238.15 have11238.47 those11238.7 511239.02 parts.11239.42
11241.18 SPEAKER411241.18 -11241.18 Have11241.18 you11241.42 just11242.23 following11242.55 up11242.86 on11243.02 that.11243.18 When11244.06 you11244.31 do11244.47 get11244.63 to11244.78 some11245.02 of11245.18 those11245.26 sticky11245.79 wickets11246.03 where,11246.35 you11246.99 know,11247.15 okay.11247.39 There's11247.63 there's11247.87 a11248.11 little11248.27 bit11248.43 of11248.51 pushback,11248.67 you11249.23 know,11249.39 we're11249.55 we're11249.87 seeking11250.03 certain11250.43 information11250.67 that11251.15 maybe11251.31 the11251.55 oddity11251.71 doesn't11252.11 wanna11252.83 give11253.15 us11253.23 for11253.39 whatever11253.55 reason,11253.87 what11254.99 is11255.23 the11255.39 what11255.63 is11255.87 the11256.03 common11256.19 response11256.51 to11256.91 that?11256.99 Do11257.23 you11257.39 do11257.63 you11257.79 try11257.95 and11258.19 work11258.35 with11258.51 them11258.67 collaboratively?11259.07 Do11260.61 you11260.85 say,11260.93 okay.11261.17 Well,11261.42 we're11261.65 gonna11261.9 go11262.3 to11262.53 court11262.61 or11262.93 take11263.17 us11263.33 to11263.49 court,11263.65 or11263.98 is11264.22 it11264.45 is11264.85 it11265.01 adversarial?11265.33
11267.98 SPEAKER811267.98 -11267.98 It11267.98 could11268.22 be11268.45 all11268.61 of11268.77 the11268.93 above.11269.09 Okay.11269.49 You11270.69 you11271.17 start11271.42 out11271.81 trying11271.98 to11272.3 work11272.45 together11272.69 and,11273.65 to11274.89 get11275.05 the11275.29 information11275.45 that11276.09 you11276.33 need.11276.49 I11278.01 I11278.41 have11278.49 had11278.73 to11278.97 sue11279.21 auditees11280.09 to11281.29 be11281.45 able11281.69 to11281.93 audit11282.17 them,11282.57 and11283.05 and11283.53 I11283.77 did11283.93 win.11284.17 So11284.65 I11284.89 do11284.97 wanna11285.13 point11285.45 that11285.69 out.11285.93 So,11287.21 you11287.61 know,11287.69 yes,11288.01 we11288.41 have11288.57 gone11288.81 to11289.05 court11289.21 before.11289.61 Typically,11291.25 we11292.28 can11292.52 get11292.69 our11293 attorneys11293.25 talking11293.81 and11294.77 then11294.92 they11295.49 can11295.73 resolve11295.97 it.11296.36 And,11296.6 in11297.81 in11298.28 Colorado,11298.52 we11300.05 have11300.28 pretty11301.25 much11301.57 carte11301.89 blanche11302.2 authority11302.85 for11303.94 any11304.18 kind11304.5 of11304.74 document,11304.9 which11305.86 is11306.1 really11306.42 great11306.74 because11307.14 they11308.34 really11308.58 can't11309.14 push11309.46 back11309.78 too11310.18 much11310.42 because11310.74 we11311.14 are11311.38 able11311.62 to11312.02 get11312.18 access11312.82 to11313.3 all11313.54 of11313.7 those11313.86 documents.11314.26 But11315.62 there's11315.86 there11316.18 needs11316.42 to11316.66 be11316.82 a11316.98 reason.11317.14 And11317.57 as11317.81 the11317.97 oddity,11318.13 you11318.77 can11319 come11319.17 back11319.41 and,11319.73 well,11319.97 what11320.2 are11320.36 you11320.52 looking11320.69 for?11321 What11321.33 are11321.49 you11321.57 trying11321.73 to11322.13 what11322.52 are11322.77 you11322.93 trying11323.08 to11323.33 find?11323.57 And11324.85 that11325 goes11325.25 back11325.57 to11325.89 the11326.13 511326.36 parts11326.6 of11326.93 the11327.08 finding11327.17 and11327.57 the11327.73 criteria.11327.89
11329.66 SPEAKER411329.66 -11329.66 Yeah.11329.66 And11329.9 I11329.98 think,11330.14 you11330.62 know,11330.86 just11331.34 looking11331.58 ahead,11331.9 if11332.46 those11332.78 reasons11333.1 were11333.42 constitutional11333.66 separation11334.78 of11335.34 powers11335.42 issues,11335.82 which11336.06 we11336.3 examined11336.54 earlier11336.94 in11337.26 this11337.42 in11338.06 this11338.22 meeting,11338.46 you11339.74 know,11339.9 that's11340.06 that's11340.38 the11340.7 concern.11340.86 Right?11341.34 It's11341.58 it's11341.81 I11342.2 I11342.36 think11342.44 that's11342.6 what11342.84 makes11343 us11343.24 unique11343.4 as11343.73 a11343.89 legislature.11344.05 You11344.92 probably11345.17 aren't11345.56 gonna11345.81 meet11345.97 with11346.13 many11346.28 executive11346.52 agency11347 oddities11347.65 that11348.2 will11348.36 say,11348.52 well,11348.76 you11349.24 know,11349.4 we11349.56 have11349.81 a11349.97 constitutional11350.13 issue11351.08 here.11351.48 So11352.68 I11352.92 think11353 that's11353.17 what11353.4 makes11353.56 us11353.73 unique,11353.97 but11354.2 I11354.36 appreciate11354.44 it.11354.84 Thank11355
11357.78 you.11357.78
11361.86 SPEAKER711361.86 -11361.86 Thank11361.86 you,11362.1 madam11362.26 chair.11362.5 Madam11363.06 auditor,11363.38 thank11363.78 you,11364.02 for11364.74 your11364.9 helpful11365.14 remarks.11365.7 If11367.3 you11367.46 were11367.62 setting11367.86 up11368.1 an11368.26 audit11368.42 and11368.82 a11368.98 member11369.14 of11369.46 your11369.62 team11369.86 was11371.17 openly11371.58 critical11372.06 of11372.53 the11372.69 potential11372.94 auditee,11373.5 you11375.33 know,11375.42 in11375.66 public11375.9 before11376.22 the11376.61 audit,11376.77 how11377.9 would11378.14 you11378.3 handle11378.45 that?11378.77
11380.3 SPEAKER811380.3 -11380.3 Remove11380.3 the11380.69 person11380.85 from11381.33 the11381.58 team.11381.74 I11383.44 I11383.68 would11383.92 not11384.16 let11384.32 them11384.56 do11384.8 an11384.96 audit11385.12 because11385.44 especially11386.24 if11386.88 they're11386.96 making11387.12 public11387.6 comments11388 because11388.72 that11389.84 would11390.08 that11390.56 would11390.88 have11391.2 the11391.36 appearance11391.6 of11392.32 us11392.48 being11392.8 biased11393.12 as11393.92 we11394.16 go11394.32 into11394.64 the11394.96 audit.11395.12 You11395.95 can't11396.19 do11396.35 that.11396.59
11397.48 SPEAKER711397.48 -11397.48 But11397.48 what11397.64 if11397.88 the11398.03 person11398.11 was11398.43 the11398.67 supervisor11398.83 of11399.48 the11399.56 team?11399.72
11401.64 SPEAKER811401.64 -11401.64 I11401.64 would11401.88 find11402.03 another11402.35 manager11402.75 for11403.32 that11403.4 audit.11403.72
11406.19 SPEAKER711406.19 -11406.19 Thank11406.19 you.11406.43
11413.7 SPEAKER111413.7 -11413.7 Madam11413.7 auditor,11414.18 thank11414.66 you11414.9 very,11415.06 very11415.38 much11415.62 for11415.86 your11416.02 time.11416.26 It11416.46 was11416.66 very11416.9 informative,11417.22 and11417.78 we11418.02 really11418.1 appreciate11418.42 it,11418.9 and11419.14 hope11419.54 things11419.86 are11420.18 going11421.22 well11421.54 out11421.86 there11422.02 in11422.26 Colorado.11422.58
11424.6 SPEAKER811424.6 -11424.6 Thank11424.6 you.11424.85
11429.97 SPEAKER111429.97 -11429.97 As11429.97 with11430.28 that,11430.52 the11430.93 invited11431.17 testimony11431.65 portion11432.44 of11432.77 this11432.93 hearing11433.17 has11433.57 concluded.11433.81 As11434.69 I11434.85 mentioned11435.01 at11435.41 the11435.57 beginning,11435.65 we11436.13 reserved11436.36 the11436.77 final11436.93 hour11437.25 of11437.49 our11437.65 hearing11437.81 for11438.13 members11438.36 of11438.69 the11438.85 public11438.93 that11439.48 preregistered11439.8 to11440.52 testify,11440.68 even11442.28 after11442.6 extending11442.92 this11443.4 deadline.11443.56 We,11444.6 for11445.16 a11445.4 full11445.48 2411445.72 hours,11446.2 no11446.6 members11446.84 of11447.24 the11447.4 public11447.56 registered.11448.04 For11449.08 those11449.4 of11449.88 the11450.12 public11450.28 that11450.76 do11451 wish11451.24 to11451.48 have11451.64 their11451.8 comments11452.04 recorded,11452.44 I11453 will11453.24 repeat11453.56 that11454.44 the11454.6 subcommittee11454.77 will11455.49 be11455.73 accepting11455.97 written11456.36 testimony11456.77 on11457.33 this11457.49 matter11457.73 until11458.36 Friday,11458.92 April11459.57 411460.02 at11460.52 5PM.11460.84 Directions11461.89 on11462.52 how11462.77 to11463 submit11463.25 written11463.65 test11463.97 testimony11464.44 can11465.57 be11465.73 found11465.97 in11466.36 the11466.52 hearing11466.69 notice11467.08 on11467.91 the11468.15 legislator's11468.39 website.11469.5 And11470.55 with11470.78 that,11471.02 do11472.31 I11472.55 hear11472.7 a11472.86 motion11472.94 to11473.35 con11473.67 to11474.15 close11475.91 the11476.63 hearing?11476.78